OpenClonk Wiki - User contributions [en]

Dynamic Map Generator

2013-01-26T18:21:19Z

Clonk-Karl: Update for mape being available as development snapshots

== Dynamic Map Generator ==

OpenClonk has a dynamic map generator that can be used to generate maps that look different everytime but still have specified recurring patterns, like lava likes, mountains, or sky islands. The documentation is available in the [http://docs.openclonk.org/en/sdk/scenario/MapCreatorS2.html C4Script reference here].

=== Mape ===

[[File:Mape.png|450px|border|right|Screenshot of Mape]]

Mape is a tool that shows a live preview of the generated mape as the Landscape.txt code is being typed. The tool is available from the [http://www.openclonk.org/nightly-builds/ Development Snapshots] page for all major platforms. Its source code lives in the OpenClonk git repository.

The tool is meant both for beginners and experts alike. Beginners can easily play around with all the possibilities and immediately see their effect on the generated map. Experts can easily tweak the map to their liking without having to restart the engine for every change they make.

The mape window has four panels. The upper right part is the largest one which is where the Landscape.txt code can be edited. The panel to the left of it shows the file system tree. This is where one can select the Material.ocg file to be loaded. This specifies the materials and textures available to the map generator. The loaded materials and textures can be seen at the bottom panel once loaded which provides an easy view to what materials and textures are available. Finally in the lower right corner there is a preview of the generated map which updates as one types. The status bar contains error messages from the Landscape generator in case the Landscape.txt code is not correct.

=== Tips and Tricks ===

* The options allow to specify the width and height of the generated mape. To avoid any surprises, especially when specifying parameters with pixels instead of percentages, this should always be set to the same size as the OpenClonk map that one plans to create.

* In the options there is also the possibility to use a fixed seed for the random number generator. This allows to always create the same map when using the same Landscape.txt code, even if it contains randomness. This can come handy when trying to get a part of the map right and one does not want the rest of the map to change with every keystroke.

* If the random seed is not fixed, the map preview can be clicked on to generate another version of the map using the same Landscape.txt code but the randomness is re-evaluated.

* For big maps, rendering the map can take a while, up to a few seconds. This considerably slows down the feedback one gets for changing little things here and there. In this case, one can comment out the parts of the map that one does not work on right now and concentrate only on one specific feature or aspect of it, and then put it all together in the end.

* For overlays that use algo=script, the Script.c file that contains the script function that is being evaluated by the algorithm needs to be in the same directory as the Landscape.txt file. Therefore the Landscape.txt file must be saved at least once before algo=script can be used, so that mape knows where to look for the Script.c file. The landscape preview does not update automatically when the Script.c file is changed, but a simple click on it re-generates it.

=== Bug Reports and Feature Requests ===

Bug Reports and Feature Requests can be reported in the [http://bugs.openclonk.org bug tracker]. There is a category for mape.

Dynamic Map Generator

2013-01-12T15:42:17Z

Clonk-Karl: Add a screenshot

== Dynamic Map Generator ==

OpenClonk has a dynamic map generator that can be used to generate maps that look different everytime but still have specified recurring patterns, like lava likes, mountains, or sky islands. The documentation is available in the [http://docs.openclonk.org/en/sdk/scenario/MapCreatorS2.html C4Script reference here].

=== Mape ===

[[File:Mape.png|450px|border|right|Screenshot of Mape]]

Mape is a tool that shows a live preview of the generated mape as the Landscape.txt code is being typed. Currently, the tool is available in [http://git.openclonk.org/ck/openclonk.git/shortlog/refs/heads/mape ck's experimental git repository]. I plan to merge it into the official OpenClonk repository soon and to provide development snapshots of it.

The tool is meant both for beginners and experts alike. Beginners can easily play around with all the possibilities and immediately see their effect on the generated map. Experts can easily tweak the map to their liking without having to restart the engine for every change they make.

The mape window has four panels. The upper right part is the largest one which is where the Landscape.txt code can be edited. The panel to the left of it shows the file system tree. This is where one can select the Material.ocg file to be loaded. This specifies the materials and textures available to the map generator. The loaded materials and textures can be seen at the bottom panel once loaded which provides an easy view to what materials and textures are available. Finally in the lower right corner there is a preview of the generated map which updates as one types. The status bar contains error messages from the Landscape generator in case the Landscape.txt code is not correct.

=== Tips and Tricks ===

* The options allow to specify the width and height of the generated mape. To avoid any surprises, especially when specifying parameters with pixels instead of percentages, this should always be set to the same size as the OpenClonk map that one plans to create.

* In the options there is also the possibility to use a fixed seed for the random number generator. This allows to always create the same map when using the same Landscape.txt code, even if it contains randomness. This can come handy when trying to get a part of the map right and one does not want the rest of the map to change with every keystroke.

* If the random seed is not fixed, the map preview can be clicked on to generate another version of the map using the same Landscape.txt code but the randomness is re-evaluated.

* For big maps, rendering the map can take a while, up to a few seconds. This considerably slows down the feedback one gets for changing little things here and there. In this case, one can comment out the parts of the map that one does not work on right now and concentrate only on one specific feature or aspect of it, and then put it all together in the end.

* For overlays that use algo=script, the Script.c file that contains the script function that is being evaluated by the algorithm needs to be in the same directory as the Landscape.txt file. Therefore the Landscape.txt file must be saved at least once before algo=script can be used, so that mape knows where to look for the Script.c file. The landscape preview does not update automatically when the Script.c file is changed, but a simply click on it re-generates it.

=== Bug Reports and Feature Requests ===

For now, send bug reports and feature requests to me via the forum or IRC. If and when this gets included in the official OpenClonk repository I plan to create a category in the bugtracker for it.

2011-03-09T15:20:20Z

Clonk-Karl: Introduce myself

Say hello and be welcomed to our introduction page for the Google Summer of Code 2011 (GSoC).

If you do not know what GSoC is you may want to visit [http://code.google.com/intl/en-EN/soc/ the project's homepage].
But if you do so you probably want to know more about OpenClonk.

== About OpenClonk ==
[[File:Merge.jpg|right|Clonk Rage in comparison to OpenClonk]]
In short, OpenClonk is a successor to the Clonk gaming series. Clonk is a game based on quick and hectic hand to hand combat, large-scale base vs. base battles, underground mining and/or friendly settlement conquests. There is no flow of the game like when you play a big campaign to advance the story nor is there a secluded game content which reliably reappears in every level you start to play. Every scenario (i.e. level) in Clonk is a story of itself, it lasts from a few minutes up to a couple of hours to finish (or fail). One scenario may bring you to a watery cave and the next one up in the sky to solitary floating island where falling is your end.
The great advantage of Clonk is the easy way to modify it and create your very scenario or a new set of ingame objects. Past Clonk titles have seen medieval castles, the Wild West, a fantasy setting with powerful magic and scary dragons or futuristic laser battles. To sum it up, Clonk is everything you make out of it.
This is because Clonk has an own powerful script language called C4Script ([http://docs.openclonk.org/en/sdk/content.html documentation on this site]) in which the game content is written.

You want to know more? See the [[About]] page and [http://www.clonk.de/news.php?lng=en the homepage (www.clonk.de)] of the commercial predecessors of OpenClonk.

== Why do we want to participate in GSoC? ==

OpenClonk possesses a team of motivated developers yet not enough to take on every task required. Though there is a running release of OpenClonk (see [http://www.openclonk.org/download/ Download]) it resembles hardly the concept and idea of the finished game.
We hope to gain new members of our developing community and get some long needed tasks done. And of course we want the existence of Clonk to become widespread known because we all think that is was, it is and will become a good and fun-to-play game.
We may not be as big as other OpenSource organisations nor are our tasks for applying students as numerous. Yet most of the team looks back on years of experience in developing and designing a game and wants to share this with upcoming developers. We would gladly provide our assistance to 1 or 2 students willing to support our project.

== Preceeding participations in GSoC ==

OpenClonk did not participate in GSoC before. The project started in the middle of 2009 and now looks back on one and a half year of development. In 2010 there was not enough progress done to support applying students.

== What about licensing? ==

OpenClonk uses the ISC license for code and Creative Commons (CC-by) for any other content (graphics, sound, ...).
See [[License]]

== Tasks for applying students ==

The game (engine) is written in C++, the seperated easy-to-modify content is written in Clonk's own C-alike scripting language C4Script. As Clonk is a game, there are many different areas of work from different disciplines in programming in the engine and generally in the project. Amongst these are:
Rendering with OGL/DX, GUI design, serialization of game objects (for save games/network), network synchronisation, (IRC) chat client, script parser and language, dynamic map generator (with [http://docs.openclonk.org/en/sdk/scenario/MapCreatorS2.html map-definition] parser), playing sound and music, packaging game content and a standalone updater, game logic and mechanics, ([http://docs.openclonk.org/en/sdk/playercontrols.html customizable]) mouse, keyboard and gamepad controls, reading and writing config files/windows registry entries, internationalization and of course, concepting, designing and creating the game content using Clonk's script language.

'''See our [[GSoC2011Ideas]] page for a list of tasks.'''

== Motivating students to stay with the project ==

Clonk is game. So it is devoted to everyone who likes playing games! OpenClonk is free to play, the predecessors are freeware except for the newest, Clonk Rage which is free to test.
Applying students should test out the game before applying to see whether or not they like it. Then they are introduced to a friendly community of developers some of them knowing each other for years and thus became friends. We want students who hopefully will like Clonk as we do.

== Contact and communication ==

The development is organised in the [http://forum.openclonk.org/forum.pl Forum] as well as in the #openclonk-dev IRC channel (located in the [http://www.euirc.net/en/index.php euIRC]). There is no mailing list for developers, instead, we use the [http://forum.openclonk.org/board_show.pl?bid=5 Developer's Corner] board in the forum for technical discussions.

== Administrators to watch GSoC ==

[...]

== Our mentors ==

[[File:Avatar-ck.png|left]] '''Clonk-Karl:''' I started playing Clonk in 1998, then began creating objects and scenarios in 2000 (my first contact with programming) and joined Redwolf Design in 2003 working on Clonk Endeavour and Clonk Rage. In the meantime I also learned C++ and became an Open Source enthusiast and was (and still am) involved in other projects such as GNOME and Gobby. But I still had a whole lot of fun with Clonk and so I was very pleased when the decision was made to make Clonk Open Source in 2009.

My primary interests these days are more technical things in the Clonk engine. This includes the graphics code (most notably 3D mesh rendering for which I introduced support) and the Linux specific areas. However I have a good grasp of the other areas in the engine as well and when confronted with a problem I know where to look for it. I also know our scripting language, C4Script, so if there are any problems with it I am likely to be able to help.

In the community I am also known simply as ''ck''. I live in Karlsruhe, Germany where I am studying physics in my final year now.
----
[[File:Avatar-PeterW.jpg|100px|left]] '''PeterW:''' My involvement with Clonk has been from the development side from the start. Already my first published project was a script editor with heavy script rewriting in order to allow script programmers to use operators in their program. When matthes published Clonk Planet's source code around 2001, it was therefore a straightforward step to "port" my changes directly into the engine.

I quickly joined forces with Sven2 and the rest of the GWE team and started hacking away. Over the years we managed to substantially improve the game. Redwolf Design ended up officially throwing its weight behind it numerous times as well, leading to the Clonk Endeavour and Clonk Rage titles. In that time, I have worked on just about every part of the engine, but script and networking are my specialities.

Generally, working on the Clonk engine has been really fun for me. The engine uses an interesting mix of technologies, like full synchronization, powerful yet easy scripting and dynamic landscapes. My goal would be to enable fellow programmers to have an equally enjoyable experience working on the project, so please don't hesitate to ask.
----
'''Maikel:''' Welcome to what I think is a great project. I have played Clonk during my youth and rediscovered it as a student, which I still am. I immediately got interested in designing levels and creating objects, which I did mainly for my own benefit. As the OpenClonk project started, I was really stimulated to join the development team so I could participate in what I think is the best 2D gaming concept. The project was and still is very open to newcomers, I can say from my own judgement. So I hope that we can attract more developers through this summer of code.

As I am too lazy to take a picture, I can only refer to the blog where my appearance is indicated somewhere. Currently I am still studying, theoretical physics, which is unrelated to the project. Thus my interest in and knowledge of the engine/C++ are limited. In this project I am mainly responsible for scripting objects, which is done in C4Script (Clonk's own scripting language as you might know by now). This is where I'd like to take up my mentoring duties, I'll probably be in IRC most of the evenings, which is a good place to ask questions and have discussions. Really looking forward to see some new faces!
----
[[File:Avatar-Newton.png|left]]'''Newton:''' Hi there, I also volunteer to be your mentor for the GSOC 2011! Clonk has been a hobby for me for many years, I was involved in the previous few [http://www.clonk.de Clonk shareware titles] under Redwolf Design and I am one of the founders of the OpenClonk project. I got a big deal of experience from past Clonk related projects and actually was the project manager for our first and current [http://www.openclonk.org/download/ OpenClonk milestone "Back to the Rocks"].

Recently, I have withdrawn a bit from active development since I am currently in my final weeks of writing my bachelor thesis at the University of Hamburg (Germany) in computer science. After I finished the thesis, I will be gone travelling until May '11, so before that I'll not be available as a mentor.

Also, I should note that I am not one of the die-hard engine developers with a great insight into the Clonk game engine. But this shouldn't be a problem as those who are also idling in our development channel #openclonk-dev on irc.euirc.net and even those who are not mentors are always happy to help :-)

=== Assistants ===

[[File:Avatar-Clonkonaut.png|left]]'''Clonkonaut:''' Hello everyone! Known as Clonkonaut, I, Felix Wagner, played Clonk for years now as well as working on the previous Clonk titles under Redwolf Design. Since the launch of OpenClonk I ceased active development. This saddened me but due to my upcoming law study my free time shortened radically.

Anyhow, I followed and helped with the conceptual work and progress. So I will assist with concept issues and pass criticism on your work (mainly positive and helpful of course!). I never learned C++ so I cannot help with this but I can aid learning C4Script and I will be there when other problems occur.

File:Avatar-ck.png

2011-03-09T14:50:51Z

Clonk-Karl:

GSoC2011Ideas

2011-03-07T14:37:41Z

Clonk-Karl: Add landscape zoom project

= Google Summer of Code 2011 Project Ideas =

This is a list of possible student projects for Google Summer of Code 2011. The game engine is written in C++ so you should be familiar with its basics for all the projects below. If there is something in OpenClonk you would like to work on in the scope of GSoC 2011 and which is not in this list then please contact us in [http://wiki.openclonk.org/w/Development IRC] or in the [http://forum.openclonk.org/ forums] and if it's a cool idea we can surely find a mentor and make it happen. Also if you have questions to any of the ideas below feel free to ask in IRC, in the forums or talk directly to one of the mentors listed.

----
'''Introduce DirectX support''' (''Mentor(s)'': [http://forum.openclonk.org/user_info.pl?uid=18 ck], [http://forum.openclonk.org/user_info.pl?uid=27 PeterW])
When we introduced support for 3D mesh rendering we only did so for the OpenGL renderer. Since meshes are required to run the game the DirectX option is currently disabled. However there are many drivers which support DirectX better than OpenGL, and Window handling (such as Tabbing out) works better in DirectX mode, so it would be cool to have it back. The current implementation of the 3D mesh renderer loads meshes in the Ogre3D format and amongst others, supports uv-mapped textures, orthographic/perspective rendering, (bone) animations, an interface to C4Script (Clonk's script language) for attaching additional meshes to bones, change textures as well as play, mix and control different animations.

* Difficulty: Easy
* Resources: [http://bugs.openclonk.org/view.php?id=122 Bug]
* Requirements: C++ knowledge, Windows OS, ideally some basic understanding of 3D computer graphics
----
'''Mesh Rendering performance''' (''Mentor(s)'': [http://forum.openclonk.org/user_info.pl?uid=18 ck], [http://forum.openclonk.org/user_info.pl?uid=27 PeterW])
Some players report poor FPS rates on their otherwise adequate hardware. This task involves finding potential bottlenecks and fixing them. Especially the new mesh rendering code is probably subject to more optimization. Ideas for things to investigate include re-using the depth buffer for multiple meshes, executing skeletal animation on the hardware or adding support for Level-of-Detail for meshes and/or textures.

* Difficulty: Medium
* Resources: [http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=11648#pid11648 A forum thread], [http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=10831#pid10831 Another thread]
* Requirements: C++ knowledge, ideally some basic understanding of 3D computer graphics.
----
'''Multi-Device support''' (''Mentor(s)'': [http://forum.openclonk.org/user_info.pl?uid=18 ck], [http://forum.openclonk.org/user_info.pl?uid=27 PeterW])
With the overhauled controls in OpenClonk it became impossible to play the game in splitscreen mode because every player needs mouse control. Splitscreen mode can be re-introduced by allowing multiple mices to be used, one for each player. The generic splitscreen code is still in place, so the code that needs to be written needs to manage multiple input devices and propagate events correctly.

* Difficulty: Medium to Hard
* Resources: [http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=645 Some initial forum discussion], [http://bugs.openclonk.org/view.php?id=543 Bug]
* Requirements: C++ knowledge, at least two mice/pointing devices :)
----
'''Extend in-game GUI: Non-modal inventory windows''' (''Mentor(s)'': [http://forum.openclonk.org/user_info.pl?uid=54 Maikel], [http://forum.openclonk.org/user_info.pl?uid=1 Newton])
The in-game inventory management is overhauled completely for the next milestone to be faster and more intuitive to use. This involves the implementation of generic non-modal windows which can interact with each other through an appropriate script interface. The generic windows are written in C++ while the specific (inventory) windows should be implemented using the script interface provided by the C++ implementation. To summarize, this project consists of three different areas of work: First, the construction and rendering of the windows and its contents, second, the interface to C4Script and third, the implementation of specific inventory (and other) windows in C4Script.

* Difficulty: Medium
* Resources: ''None yet''
* Requirements: C++ knowledge, ideally knowledge about C4Script (Clonk's scripting language)
----
'''Finish implementing the landscape zoom shader''' (''Mentor(s)'': [http://forum.openclonk.org/user_info.pl?uid=27 PeterW], [http://forum.openclonk.org/user_info.pl?uid=18 ck])
OpenClonk allows to zoom in and out. Object graphics have been updated to a higher resolution so that they do not look blurry when zoomed in, but this is not the case for the landscape yet. There is a prototype attempt to scale the landscape using the an algorithm similar to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hq3x Hq3x] at runtime on the hardware. The goal of this project is to finish it and to integrate it into the OpenClonk engine.

* Difficulty: Medium
* Resources: [http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=498 forum discussion and presentation of a prototype implementation]
* Requirements: C++ knowledge, ideally some experience with shader programming

GSoC2011Ideas

2011-03-02T20:18:37Z

Clonk-Karl: Added some links

2010-02-18T12:47:20Z

Clonk-Karl: Log+Summary from Monday's meeting

== Summary ==
* Tested Asmageddon's [http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=316 races], Sven committed to [http://hg.openclonk.org/openclonk/rev/0111f584c7ad hg]
* [http://bugs.openclonk.org/view.php?id=117 #117] prevents reliable network games
* Would be good to have an AUTHORS file with all contributors, also to show/scroll them in a credits screen ingame
** Not sure whether it can be reliably generated from hg, so better manage it manually for now
* Please use descriptive log messages for hg commits

== Full Log ==
<pre>18:47:05-!- ck [~ck@euirc-6004e67d.versanet.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
18:47:05-!- Irssi: #openclonk-dev: Total of 24 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 1 voices, 23 normal]
18:47:05-!- mode/#openclonk-dev [+ao ck ck] by ChanServ
18:47:38-!- Irssi: Join to #openclonk-dev was synced in 33 secs
18:49:16<!Mimmo_O> ok, ill come a bit later to the meeting. ill join you in about 30 minutes.
18:49:20-!- Mimmo_O [~mimmoisgr@euirc-e72742e4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ]
18:50:10-!- PeterW [~peter@euirc-2bba5d9c.superkabel.de] has quit [Client exited]
19:01:35-!- Sven2 [_ve_2@goldwipf.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
19:01:38-!- mode/#openclonk-dev [+ao Sven2 Sven2] by ChanServ
19:02:34<!Sven2> Hey
19:03:21<!Sven2> No dev meeting today? :(
19:03:39<!Maikel> Not if there is noone else coming
19:03:55 * ck is there
19:05:51-!- Zapper [~zapper@zap.euirc.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
19:05:54-!- mode/#openclonk-dev [+ao Zapper Zapper] by ChanServ
19:06:53<!Sven2> Well, since we got a few people here...
19:07:11<!Sven2> got a few points. First: What do you think about Asmageddon's races? Shall I just commit them into the parkour folder?
19:07:17<!Zapper> Anything going on already? :)
19:07:23<!Zapper> I have to admit I didnt test them yet
19:07:34<!Zapper> I have some problems with the developers mode
19:07:36<!Maikel> I'll have a look now, how many are there?
19:07:47<!Sven2> It's dynamic map races, pretty much like your Cavern
19:07:54-!- PeterW [~PeterW@euirc-2bba5d9c.superkabel.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
19:07:57-!- mode/#openclonk-dev [+ao PeterW PeterW] by ChanServ
19:08:24-!- clonkine [~clonkine@euirc-38dc869e.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
19:08:35<!Sven2> I think it's four of them
19:08:41<!Zapper> mh
19:08:41<!Maikel> We don't want numerous scenarios, or?
19:08:41<!Sven2> Maybe have a game? :)
19:08:50<!Zapper> ok
19:08:50<!Maikel> ok
19:08:55<!Sven2> I don't know. We don't really have that much content :P
19:09:42<!ck> well we can still throw them out later if they don't meet rising quality standards and nobody cares about them
19:09:47<!Sven2> Game open
19:10:07<!Sven2> Yes, I think the same
19:10:11<!Zapper> uh, my content differs
19:10:14<!Maikel> I suggest we put in the best 2
19:10:16 * ck compiles
19:10:24-!- Newton [~quassel@euirc-8e0e2f7e.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
19:10:27-!- mode/#openclonk-dev [+ao Newton Newton] by ChanServ
19:10:47<!Newton> hi
19:10:48<!Zapper> oh, 4 changesets
19:10:54<!Zapper> so, how do I shelve changes again? <.<
19:10:59<!Sven2> Maikel joined. Seems to work
19:11:09<!Maikel> hi
19:11:27<!Sven2> Remember to not have a win32text *decode* hook in Windows. It will check out files in CRLF so your working copy would differ
19:11:40<!Sven2> Maikel+CK in
19:11:52<!Zapper> <.<
19:12:10<!Sven2> Anyway, while we're waiting
19:12:21<!Sven2> I wonder how we solve the attribution
19:12:41<!Sven2> We've got a HG change log, but that will become unreadable after a while
19:13:03<!Sven2> I think we really need a central place to put credits
19:13:28<!ck> Can't this be extracted automatically from hg, at least to some extent?
19:13:48<!ck> There is also a planet/AUTHORS file
19:13:50<!Sven2> We won't have trouble writing up all the common contributors using HG. But there will be some people who have contributed just a single sound?
19:13:50<!Zapper> Sven2, you are using the current tip-version?
19:13:52<!ck> Not sure how up-to-date it is
19:14:03<!Sven2> AUTHORS sounds fine
19:14:21<!Newton> in most new scripts, the first few lines are a short description of the object and its author
19:14:59<!Sven2> I would prefer to have a central AUTHORS file, which can be used to do a credits screen/credits roll later on
19:16:12<!Zapper> i'm in the game now
19:16:14<!Sven2> I mean, if I commit e.g. Asmageddons races, it would be a commit done by me mentioning him in the commit notice. Noone will remember that when we do write up the credits
19:16:15<!Zapper> shelved my changes
19:16:21<!Zapper> onto my desktop :/
19:16:38<!ck> Sven2: No, you'd create a commit with Asmageddon as the author
19:16:44<!Sven2> Some items such as scenarios have an Author.txt. But other stuff like graphics files dont
19:17:14<!ck> Not sure how to do that in Tortoise, on the command line it's just a argument to hg commit
19:17:16<!Zapper> are we going to keep the author.txt in the scenarios?
19:17:50<!Sven2> I just think it would be much easier to have an authors file than collect it by hand from two hundred sources
19:18:01<!Zapper> five are int he lobby now!
19:18:08<!Zapper> one author file for the project, yes
19:18:08<!Sven2> OK, I'm starting!
19:18:20<!Zapper> but not one author file for every scenario that tries to keep track of changes
19:18:31<!Zapper> oh, I am loading objects.c4d? :o
19:18:36<!Zapper> 90%
19:18:47<!Sven2> You guys are loading forever. Hope you arent using debug engines? :(
19:18:51<!Newton> in the resources repos we keep track of all the authors
19:18:56<!Newton> in a central file
19:19:00<!Zapper> imo sven is not uptodate!
19:19:06<!Maikel> 97%
19:19:13 * ck joined without loading anything
19:19:19<!ck> crash :(
19:19:33<!ck> C4Player::UpdateView again
19:19:44<!ck> Should have started in debugger :(
19:19:54-!- Balu [~Balu@euirc-8c27799d.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
19:20:18<!Newton> what are you playing?
19:20:29<!ck> One of Asmageddon's Races
19:20:48<!ck> the original question was whether to commit them or not :)
19:30:46<!Isilkor> Zapper: hg shelve? ;)
19:31:12<!Isilkor> alternatively, hg qnew -f things-i-changed.patch && hg qpop && hg update && hg qpush
19:32:45<!Zapper> was alex playing with us? :o
19:32:47<!Maikel> You did respawn in a stuck location?
19:32:50<!Sven2> No
19:32:56<!Zapper> how could he win then!
19:32:57<!Maikel> that was alteredarmor
19:33:05<!Sven2> He was in and disconnected
19:33:10<!Zapper> he had 100%
19:33:20<!Sven2> The % display is broken I think
19:33:42<!Sven2> Anyway, how does it determine the arrow for the next checkpoint if they are not ordered? Is it the closest one?
19:33:54<!Maikel> in the scoreboard, it's some sort of distance, to the next CP, but it is obsolete with arrows
19:33:58<!Maikel> yes closest
19:34:07<!Sven2> For this kind of race it would make sense if it were the lowest
19:34:39<!Maikel> Can be realized :)
19:34:50<!Sven2> And people should start randomly either with dynamite or loam in this race
19:34:58<!Sven2> So you can blast yourself out of being stuck on a checkpoint
19:35:15<!Sven2> Anyway. Gotta find out how to commit as Asmageddon
19:35:20<!Maikel> The checkpoint can also clear the area
19:35:28<!ck> should maybe also use gradient sky only
19:36:03<!ck> as the sky bitmap does not wrap around vertically
19:37:59-!- Luchs is now known as luchs
19:38:40< JCaesar> Sven2: Just change your name?
19:39:32<!Sven2> Well, which races shall I take?
19:39:35<!Sven2> All?
19:40:18<!Maikel> let me look at the others
19:43:05<!Sven2> JCaesar: Probably the easiest way to do it, yes
19:43:25<!Zapper> How you you start a game in the developers mode again? dragging it onto the engine doesnt work
19:43:33<!Zapper> I think my developers mode is broken :(
19:43:51<!Maikel> cmd.exe
19:44:09<!Zapper> http://pastebin.com/d272865cd
19:44:43<!Maikel> planet\ Clonk.exe Scen.c4s
19:45:06<!Zapper> I did that. Doesnt work
19:45:24< JCaesar> Did you compile without it?
19:45:26<!Sven2> Looks like your resources are broken
19:45:56<!Sven2> Developer mode uses some resources compiled into the executable iirc
19:46:49<!Zapper> So, what could cmake have done wrong? :o
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19:48:17<!Mimmo_O> im there, im here.
19:48:42<!Mimmo_O> anything important happened?
19:49:01<!Maikel> The design of those other three can definitely be improved, but well that can be done later, so you can commit them all
19:50:47<!Sven2> OK, thanks
19:51:02<!Sven2> I'll just give them some more distinct titles
19:52:11<!Sven2> Hm. They should have a better icon
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19:55:50<+occ> Asmageddon * 0111f584c7ad planet/Parkour.c4f (42 files in 5 dirs): Some new dynamic parkour landscapes
19:56:08<!Sven2> Anyway, last thing on my list: What do you think about loam bridging during SCALE and HANGLE?
19:56:29<!Sven2> And also other actions during scale and hangle?
19:57:00<!Newton> during hangle?
19:57:16<!Maikel> I like the idea in general, but I think some constraints are needed
19:57:52<!Maikel> A more agile clonk is always good, but there must still be some challenges in getting through a landscape.
19:59:07<!Mimmo_O> i think scaling is ok, but hangling would be too much
20:00:11<!Sven2> The challenge is a good point. Right now, it's really not very hard to get through most of the randomized cave maps if you do not need to blast
20:00:26<!Sven2> But I wonder if that's really a bad thing
20:01:23<!Sven2> If we want challenges, we can go into the direction of "Deep Down" in CR, which would prolly still be pretty hard to play in OC
20:02:23<!Maikel> Yes indeed, but it has definitely become more easy in OC
20:02:56<+occ> newton * 352025a591ec planet (6 files in 2 dirs): colorful explosions & boomrace. I want to test this now - who is in?
20:03:11<!Sven2> OK
20:03:11<!Maikel> Maybe we should make such a scenario
20:03:15<!Mimmo_O> me is in
20:03:27<!Maikel> I am in.
20:03:32<!Newton> oki
20:03:38<!Newton> do i need to recompile?
20:03:40< anakonda> me too
20:03:57-!- Balu [~Balu@euirc-8c27799d.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
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20:04:24<!Newton> open
20:04:26<!Sven2> Depends on when you last compiled? :P
20:04:39< anakonda> 1 h ago
20:04:44<!Sven2> Hm, can't get in :(
20:04:47<!Sven2> Objects.c4d
20:04:52<!Newton> hm
20:04:53<!Mimmo_O> must be your fault!
20:04:55<!Sven2> Others can join?
20:04:59<!Mimmo_O> i can
20:05:00<!Newton> you updated?
20:05:13<!Newton> + removed all .origs, all empty folders?
20:05:13<!Sven2> Oh, you just committed
20:05:15<!Sven2> :D
20:05:18<!Newton> there should be two empty folders
20:07:32< Matthi> "[20:04] occ: newton * 352025a591ec planet (6 files in 2 dirs): colorful explosions & boomrace. I want to test this now - who is in?" <- What the ...?
20:08:18<!Newton> hm mimmo laggt
20:09:05<!Isilkor> Okay, I want a policy what goes in the repos and what doesn't about right now
20:09:18<!Isilkor> In: tested, working stuff
20:09:32<!Isilkor> Out: untested stuff people want to try out with their buddies
20:09:44<!Newton> its working
20:09:52<!Newton> i meant: playtest it now
20:09:57<!Isilkor> yes, I know
20:10:03<!Isilkor> point stands
20:10:56<!Isilkor> If you need to playtest it still, it isn't tested
20:11:11<!Newton> ok after all it was you, mimmo
20:11:17<!Newton> sorry, that was a "test" ;-P
20:11:18<!Mimmo_O> :(
20:11:22<!Isilkor> also that commit message is crap
20:11:32<!Isilkor> first part is ok, second half isn't
20:11:46<!Mimmo_O> darn
20:11:52<!Mimmo_O> it was the debugbuild
20:12:25<!Isilkor> Because occ isn't here to play messenger
20:12:37<!Isilkor> it's here to tell people that a new commit has been pushed
20:15:28<!Newton> so what do you think ;-)
20:15:47<!Newton> Isilkor: yeah well, but why take it so seriously?@commit msgs
20:16:02<!Sven2> Really cool race
20:16:05<!Mimmo_O> rehost it :(
20:16:08< Matthi> I agree with Isilkor here: >ou should keep in mind that the commit history is neither a _chat_ nor unimportant enough to leave commit messages empty
20:16:13<!Newton> who would because of that miss some very important changes?
20:16:14<!Sven2> It's annoying that you often pick up rocks and stuff
20:17:05<!Sven2> I don't mind commit messages. Why are you guys are so protective of the repository?
20:17:32<!Sven2> It's a development tool not visible in the final product. Like a scrapboard.
20:17:43<!Newton> (reopen)
20:18:05< Matthi> I believe that development tool quality greatly influeces product quality
20:18:22<!Newton> I could overload the RejectCollect function of the clonk and add MaxContentsCount=2
20:18:39<!Newton> but after all, first of all its a funny little test - perhaps later I build it into a proper race
20:19:26<!Sven2> Newton: And allow nothing but rockets?
20:19:35<!Sven2> Loam can be useful; but I guess it would be a trade off
20:19:36<!Newton> you mean in earth?
20:19:46<!Sven2> Just dont allow collection
20:19:51<!Newton> ah right
20:19:58<!Sven2> Because it sucks when your inventory is blocked and you dont get rocket respawns
20:20:24<!Sven2> Well, go?
20:20:56<!Newton> Matthi: Sure, working with a good IDE will get you further when developing, thus the outcome of your development might be better. but whats your point?
20:21:44< Matthi> Point is: Just try remember that commit history has a purpose
20:23:20< Matthi> One not being supported with commit messages like "..." or chat messages
20:24:20<!Mimmo_O> 2:15.4 :D
20:24:32<!Mimmo_O> greate one
20:24:32<!Newton> ui
20:24:38<!Newton> Matthi: like comments have
20:24:40<!Mimmo_O> nice scenario
20:25:06<!Newton> how do you jump off the rocket?
20:25:13<!Mimmo_O> click again
20:25:14<!Sven2> Click again?
20:25:16<!Newton> -do +did
20:25:17<!Newton> ah ok
20:25:25<!Newton> because you can either jump
20:25:25<!Mimmo_O> can you somehow controll them..?
20:25:33<!Newton> or click again, or rightclick
20:25:48<!Newton> Mimmo: yes, little bit
20:25:55<!Newton> but htey are very träge
20:26:02<!Mimmo_O> i see
20:26:04<!Newton> with A and D
20:27:28<!Maikel> some realistic acceleration would be nice
20:27:47<!Newton> already tried that. It's not so good
20:27:59<!Mimmo_O> a quick question
20:28:07<!Newton> actually it gets even slower
20:28:16<!Mimmo_O> when you downloaded the repos, what do you also need except from the clonk.exe and c4group?
20:28:36<!Newton> hm?
20:28:52<!Mimmo_O> *-downloade *+cloned
20:29:27<!Newton> I got the whole repository when i cloned it
20:29:32<!Mimmo_O> friend of mine is just cloning OC onto his rechner
20:29:39<!Mimmo_O> yes, but you need smoe special files to play
20:30:08<!Newton> System.c4g f.e.
20:30:41-!- luchs is now known as Luchs
20:30:52<!Newton> another time?@race
20:30:57<!Mimmo_O> sure
20:31:23<!Mimmo_O> my OC crashed for no reason
20:31:26<!Mimmo_O> oh
20:31:27<!Mimmo_O> antivir.
20:31:47<!Sven2> Could test one of Asmageddon's instead?
20:32:18<!Maikel> In team modus preferably
20:32:39<!Maikel> So I can recognize some bugs, already found one
20:33:04<!Newton> ok
20:33:12<!Newton> who hosts?
20:33:23<!Sven2> Not too hard to find bugs ATM :P
20:33:37<!Maikel> in the parkour goal
20:33:38<!Sven2> Hosted the cave
20:33:48<!Sven2> The % display seems to be pretty meaningless
20:33:52<!Sven2> Maikel in!
20:33:59<!Maikel> Yes needs to be removed
20:34:15<!Maikel> Checkpoints and best time should be enough
20:34:16<!Mimmo_O> Mimmo in
20:34:26<!Sven2> Newton?
20:34:39<!Maikel> Are teams not possible?
20:35:23<!Sven2> Dont know
20:35:24<!Maikel> Btw: http://www.clonk.de/forum/en/topic_show.pl?tid=1654#pid17311
20:35:29<!Sven2> NEwton not coming? I'll just start then
20:35:51<!Newton> wait
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20:45:19<!Mimmo_O> nooo
20:45:28<!Newton> everyone lost?
20:45:40<!Newton> well, its a race
20:45:41<!Maikel> That was a too close call
20:45:49<!Maikel> The end sucks
20:46:02<!Sven2> Yeah. That's a generic problem with the races right now
20:46:22<!Maikel> Well digging towards the end is just too slow
20:46:23<!Sven2> If there is any cahllenge in building/blasting, there will be a strong rubber band effect
20:46:41<!Maikel> Well not if teams are allowed
20:46:41<!Newton> hm?
20:46:50<!Sven2> I guess that could work, yes
20:47:00<!Maikel> Then one can concentrate on defending a position
20:47:03<!Maikel> like you did
20:47:17<!Sven2> Ye. Would have been cool if we had been in a team :)
20:47:27<!Newton> well lets do it
20:47:39<!Maikel> Hm teams?
20:47:48<!Maikel> I don;t get the color problems
20:47:48<!Sven2> I don't think the goal can do it
20:48:05<!Maikel> Just add teams.txt it should work
20:48:10<!Sven2> OK
20:48:15<!Sven2> Hm, just remove it
20:48:19<!Maikel> pinkeln
20:49:04<!Mimmo_O> another round?
20:49:11<!Sven2> Now hosting the sky islands with teams
20:49:43<!Sven2> Hm, no team selection
20:49:52<!Maikel> goal race?
20:50:35<!Sven2> Yes. But I wrote Teams.txt now
20:50:43<!Sven2> [Teams]
20:50:44<!Sven2> Active=true
20:50:44<!Sven2> Custom=false
20:50:44<!Sven2> AllowHostilityChange=true
20:50:44<!Sven2> AutoGenerateTeams=true
20:51:23<!Maikel> Does that somehow only work with melee?
20:51:39<!Newton> ?
20:51:50<!Sven2> Dont know. Tried again; no luck
20:51:53<!Sven2> It's like it's ignored
20:51:58<!Sven2> I copied Teams.txt from CoFuT now
20:52:20<!Maikel> Still failes?
20:54:59<!Mimmo_O> krasch \o/
20:58:44<!Sven2> That one's not really good for team %)
20:58:45<!Newton> you are in a race
20:58:46< anakonda> I vs 3
20:58:51<!Newton> what a unhelpful message
20:59:06<!Newton> the scoreboard seems to be broken too
20:59:14<!Maikel> in what way?
20:59:23<!Sven2> Dont see a problem except the % display
20:59:37<!Maikel> I had no clue what to display under the goal in four/five wors
20:59:39<!Maikel> d
20:59:47<!Sven2> "You suck"
20:59:53<!Newton> it shows only the % to the next point?
20:59:54<!Maikel> "Fucking open the scoreboard"
20:59:55<!Sven2> When you're last ;)
21:00:27<!Maikel> Yes newton
21:00:34<!Newton> like before in Race.c4d: 56% (-4%) for example
21:00:50<!Maikel> -4%?
21:00:50<!Sven2> Methinks the check points are enough
21:00:59<!Newton> that info is not really helping since you dont know how many there are and which checkpoint is the next
21:01:00<!Maikel> With the arrow, me too
21:01:01<!Sven2> If we can keep the score board small, it won't be in the way
21:01:19<!Sven2> The number of check points is in the scoreboard title?
21:01:24<!Maikel> yes
21:02:53<!Maikel> What's up with the teams?
21:03:32<!Sven2> Dont know. My guess is Teams.txt is no longer loaded
21:04:07<!Maikel> I had it running 1,5 weeks ago in a local network game
21:04:17<!Sven2> Hm, ok
21:04:50<!Sven2> Weird. Works now.
21:05:01<!Sven2> Maybe I was starting from a different folder
21:05:17<!Maikel> Here too, but that's my own fault I had it named Teams.txt.txt
21:05:43<!Maikel> wanna try teams, then join
21:05:50<!Sven2> ok
21:06:59<!Mimmo_O> great!
21:07:06<!Maikel> what happened?
21:08:23<!Mimmo_O> i got sync loss
21:08:27<!Mimmo_O> my landscape was also different
21:08:37<!Mimmo_O> and Phoenix has to leave now
21:09:06<!Maikel> Sven I had an error trying to kick in the same instance phnix left
21:09:19<!Maikel> rehost?
21:09:23<!Sven2> TT
21:09:23<!Sven2> ok
21:10:03<!Maikel> What's the explanation for the missing colors?
21:10:50< JCaesar> Crash while loading.
21:14:09< JCaesar> Is the MS sourcecode available?
21:18:26<!Sven2> !!!
21:18:29<!Sven2> Imba teamwork
21:18:29<!Mimmo_O> 1vs2 is unfair :(
21:18:42<!Maikel> Yes, but I noticed some bugs
21:19:03<!Maikel> Only one teammember needs to go through a cp, and the arrow does not adapt to that
21:19:11<!Sven2> Oh
21:19:19<!Sven2> Wouldve been even easier if I had known that :D
21:19:26<!Maikel> And sven you already did finish cp8 before going through 9, or?
21:19:39<!Sven2> I missed 87 first
21:19:40<!Sven2> 8
21:19:48<!Maikel> ok, so that's not a bug
21:19:53<!Sven2> Didnt realize it was there :)
21:20:10<!Mimmo_O> im takng a showa
21:20:26<!Maikel> Can you explain the color problems?
21:20:41<!Sven2> Yellow not being yellow in game?
21:20:55<!Maikel> well the cp particles are gone
21:21:06<!Maikel> or is that just local here
21:21:29<!Sven2> They're gone for dark colors I think
21:21:42<!Sven2> They're probably drawn additive
21:21:44<!Maikel> but why/how?
21:21:45<!Sven2> So black is invisible
21:23:21<!Maikel> Additive=0
21:24:45<!Maikel> So multiple winners -> all lose bug is removed
21:25:14<!Sven2> Hm @Additive
21:25:20<!Sven2> Would have to reproduce the bug then
21:25:22<!Sven2> It never happens for my player
21:26:06<!Maikel> The cp is displayed correctly at your pc?
21:27:47<!Sven2> If I race, yes
21:27:56<!Sven2> But in network, for some players the sections were just missing
21:28:09<!Maikel> yes that problem I have too
21:28:20<!Sven2> You're using GetPlrColor btw?
21:28:32<!Maikel> yes, there is nothing else
21:28:34<!Sven2> That's a weird way to do it. It's using GetPlayerInfoCoreVal I think
21:28:48<!Maikel> Someone removed the engine function I gues
21:29:01<!Sven2> Cool
21:30:31<!Maikel> Nothing there in Script.cpp
21:30:47<!Sven2> Well, it should be the same I guess
21:31:29<!Sven2> It's using GetPlayerVal. Just a very inefficient method for one of the most used functions
21:31:56<!Maikel> But it is network safe?
21:32:03<!Sven2> Yes, should be
21:35:15<!Maikel> Is the double throw wanted?
21:39:17<!Sven2> Don't know. It bugs me quite often
21:39:33<!Maikel> Yes I can't click that fast
21:39:48<!Maikel> *bug report
21:41:05-!- Mortimer [~Mortimer@euirc-230ffc0b.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
21:55:15<+occ> newton * d9147cdad572 planet (5 files in 2 dirs): boomrace update
21:55:15<+occ> newton * c2ee8b1947f6 planet/Tests.c4f/boomrace.c4s/System.c4g (Boompack.c Clonk.c): boomrace update #2
21:55:55<!Mimmo_O> hostit Newton
21:56:30<!Newton> open
22:02:37<!Mimmo_O> noo
22:02:50<!Newton> yaaaay
22:02:55<!Newton> round open
22:08:49<!Mimmo_O> :)
22:09:00<!Newton> interesting
22:09:11<!Newton> my flatmate wanted to hold the mouse button
22:09:24<!Newton> to use the rocket, then let go to ... let go of the rocket
22:09:54<!Mimmo_O> this could also be an idea
22:10:00<!Mimmo_O> i think it would also be better
22:10:22<!Mimmo_O> if you want to leave the rocket but press to late
22:10:26<!Mimmo_O> you maybe use another object
22:13:38-!- Ape [~ape@88.193.0.euirc-fdc0a58a] has quit [Client exited]
22:31:47<!Newton> who wants to make (fireworks) rocket sounds with his microphone??? :)
22:51:55<!Mimmo_O> *tshoooo.... pfft.*
22:52:14< JCaesar> *tries*
22:53:01<!Mimmo_O> im off naw
22:53:04<!Mimmo_O> good naight
22:53:07-!- Mimmo_O [~mimmoisgr@euirc-e72742e4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ]
22:53:25< JCaesar> Nah, sound's crappy.
22:55:25-!- Mortimer [~Mortimer@euirc-230ffc0b.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Mortimer]
23:00:53-!- Randrian [~randrian@der.richard.im.euirc.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
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23:01:46<!Randrian> hello, sorry, that I couldn't attend the meeting, I was lerning for a test with a friend.
23:02:36<!Maikel> You didn't miss anything, we started only with four people, and ended up playing some scenarios
23:03:23<!ck> Randrian: Can you live with that bone bug for a while?
23:03:41<!Newton> ck: I posted 4 new bugs for you :P
23:04:02<!ck> It's unlikely that I get much done for the next two or three weeks
23:04:03<!Randrian> well, then we have to live with no good animation for the boompack
23:04:19<!Randrian> and the dynamite box animations also look wierd then.
23:04:25<!ck> have to learn for an exam, and I'm also being paid to do some work on Gobby
23:04:49<!Randrian> yeah, I understand.</pre>

IRCMeeting

2010-02-18T12:36:16Z

Clonk-Karl: Link to log for Monday's meeting

Roadmap

2010-02-08T23:20:39Z

Clonk-Karl: items can be attached

==Roadmap==

We have set us the goal to have a somewhat '''playable game''' for our next [http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=325 OpenClonk meeting] starting on March 21st 2010.

===Development goal===
The goal is to create some weapons, useful tools and other objects which can be used in small melees and parcours. We aim to have a few scenarios. Probably, we will go into the direction of settlement, mining and production lines after that, but we will decide on that when it's time. This is something we can work out at the OCM.

===Todos===
For this goal to reach, certain basic features have to be completed. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything else or anything more. These are just the necessary features.
Much of this is (finally) work for the scripter and also for the graphic artists (render the objects, decoration textures?), sound and music makers.

====HUD====
...needs to be finished and bug-free engine-side. Related items in the bugtracker are: {{Bug|66}}, {{Bug|62}}, {{Bug|67}}, {{Bug|98}}, {{Bug|99}}, {{Bug|100}}, {{Bug|72}}

====Basic controls and the clonk====

* Gamepad controls & the type of control needs to be chooseable in the frontend (Sven2)
* Finish animations (Randrian) and new control behaviour (Newton)
* <s>Meshes of items must be attachable to the clonk for animations (ck)</s> (has been implemented)

====Goals====

* Race(Parcour): Extend the goal with the possibility of checkpoints. The clonks have to come by the checkpoints in the (right) order to win. Option to respawn the clonk at the checkpoint. Checkpoint could be e.g. a flag pole. (Maikel)
* Melee: Last man (team) standing wins. If or how many relaunches each player gets, should be configurable (by script). The goal must work for teams, too.

====Objects====

# Items with which the clonk can overcome obstacles
#* Shovel (animation)
#* Loam
#* ...more items. Examples: Climbing hook, thrusters, staffs with certain effects, pickaxes, ropes, CX-like catapult. We didn't plan that out intentionally. If someone got solid ideas for this, he can implement it.
# Items with what one can fight
#* A (volcanic) flint to be found in the earth
#* A few melee weapons (e.g. also shield) (Zapper?)
#* Bow (maybe with other arrow types too) (Zapper?)
#* Musket (Zapper?)
#* ... a few other ranged weapons or items

====Scenarios====
The Material.c4g needs to be ~complete. All typical materials from CR plus at least castle walls (stone/granite textures) and some other textures which might be useful in designing scenarios.
This will be the topic in some of the later meetings, when the objects have been scripted. During the meeting, nobody came up with concrete ideas for race scenarios.
Anyway, at this point at least this scenario should be done in any case:

# Tutorial scenario (Sven2)
#* Would be nice to have a tutorial scenario that introduces each object/control mechanism one by one
#* Could start out with simple movement left/right. Then you need to jump. Later, you find a shovel, then loam, etc.
#* A message at every checkpoint, telling you what to do next

====Artwork====

* Main menu background / Loaders
* (Logo) / Upper board, Lower board

====Misc====
See bugtracker

2010-01-19T16:34:00Z

Clonk-Karl: Added log of yesterday's meeting (TODO: Better formatting?)

<pre>19:11:45<!Mimmo_O> i think newton forgot about the time
19:11:52<!Mimmo_O> or maybe hell join us in 48 minutes
19:11:53<!Isilkor> Well, this meeting is off to a great start
19:12:35<!Isilkor> Which means I'll wrest control from him and just use the agenda he posted on the forums
19:12:49<!Randrian> hmm I am sorry, but I have to join dinner now... I'll join later
19:13:20<!Isilkor> Welcome to the first OpenClonk developer IRC meeting. We're trying to be constructive here, so please don't disrupt the discussion (too much).
19:13:40<!Maikel> Ty :)
19:14:21< Asmageddon> So that eeting was meant to be IRC meeting?
19:14:24<!Isilkor> I'll be providing a short summary of the meeting afterwards.
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19:14:45<!ck> I also suggest to put the logs online, accessible from the wiki
19:14:45<!Isilkor> Asmageddon: We're doing a short weekly meeting to steer the project in a general direction
19:14:48<!Zapper> yo newton
19:14:55<!Isilkor> As a first, I'm going to assume that the time and place is acceptable for everyone. If there's any problems, please speak up now.
19:15:05<!Isilkor> ck: Can do.
19:15:06<!Newton> hey guys
19:15:16<!Maikel> hi
19:15:27<!Isilkor> Newton: We're just about to start, do you want to take the helm?
19:15:28< Asmageddon> hello!
19:15:28<!Newton> sorry for the lateness
19:15:58<!Newton> is everyone there?
19:16:10<!ck> I'd prefer if we could start about an hour later in future, though 19:00 is also OK if anybody objects
19:16:11<!Zapper> Well, I am
19:16:36<!Isilkor> Randrian will join us later
19:17:01<!Newton> so do we start at 19:00 or 20:00 in the future?
19:17:11<!Mimmo_O> Newton!
19:17:18<!Newton> Isilkor: ok@helm
19:17:30<!Isilkor> I'd prefer 19:00, but I'd be willing to compromise ;)
19:17:34<!Newton> same here
19:17:41<!Maikel> I don't care.
19:17:58<!Maikel> dependent on the length of the meetings.
19:18:14<!Mimmo_O> yeh
19:18:15<!Newton> hm, then lets stick to 19:00 for now
19:18:47<!Newton> do you think we should keep some kind of protocol of the meetings?
19:19:15< Asmageddon> what for?
19:19:16<!ck> I think it's enough to put the IRC logs online, and maybe a short summary
19:19:17< s_m_w> Logs are usually enough for meetings held on IRC
19:19:35<!Mimmo_O> yop
19:19:37<!Newton> but then, we still need someone to do that
19:19:44<!Maikel> I'll
19:19:46<!Isilkor> I'm doing it
19:19:49<!ck> Isilkor volunteered for today..
19:19:50<!Newton> fight for it
19:19:54<!Newton> ok
19:20:09<!Maikel> do>will
19:20:34<!Newton> I think its better if we have any additional TOPs, to mention them now even though we dont have to be that official
19:20:46<!Newton> anybody has something he wants to talk about?
19:21:03<!Mimmo_O> nothing really important
19:21:04< Asmageddon> I have
19:21:07<!Maikel> TOP = Topic?
19:21:12< Asmageddon> But nothing so important
19:21:16<!Newton> Maikel: yes, Agenda point
19:21:18<!Mimmo_O> TagesOrdnungsPunkte
19:21:25<!Newton> oh@TOP
19:21:27<!Newton> so its german
19:21:28<!Newton> anyway
19:21:37<!Newton> Asmageddon?
19:21:47<!Mimmo_O> i know that frm my german lessons :S we need to keep protocol of every hour.
19:21:49< Asmageddon> Wait a moment, I'm eating :P
19:22:05<!Newton> err ok. Then I'll mention my point
19:22:22<!Maikel> Maybe we can end with topics suggested during discussion, and start with the predefined agenda.
19:22:39<!Newton> yes, that would be another option
19:22:56<!Newton> however i fear that later (at point 5), the whole meeting will start to dissolve a little
19:22:59<!Maikel> For the future, just start with your point for now
19:23:31< Asmageddon> Ok, I want lightning system, not neccesarily dynamic, can be precalculated and updated when terrain is modified or light added/removed
19:23:40< Asmageddon> If you want I have example images made in GIMP
19:23:42< Asmageddon> but they are a bit big
19:23:55< Asmageddon> And it will take some time to upload them with my internet
19:24:21<!Newton> Asmageddon: this is more of a feature request and does not belong here. You'd better post that into the forum. We are now talking about more basic concepts
19:24:22< Ape> Make them JPEG and they will be small(?)
19:24:35< Asmageddon> Ok, forget that
19:24:46< Asmageddon> That is not feature request
19:24:49< Asmageddon> It is a suggestion
19:24:56< Asmageddon> it will make OC look WAY better
19:25:07<!Newton> ok
19:25:08<!Newton> anyway
19:25:08< Asmageddon> which can eventually make more people to play OC
19:25:28<!Isilkor> That is fine and all, but in the end it's still a feature request
19:25:32<!Newton> My agenda point: With property lists, effect vars, local vars and script constant callbacks ("IsArrow"), the whole design pattern of which goes where is a bit softened
19:25:47<+Matthi> (Asmageddon: As right as your point may be: please don't forget that currently, there isn't even a GAME one could play)
19:26:13< Asmageddon> ok :/
19:26:15<!Newton> + e.g. Visibility as a property, but not GetXDir
19:26:25<!Newton> I'd like to talk about that later, before point 5 perhaps
19:26:50<!Zapper> and what to talk about now? :o
19:26:57<!Newton> except you would like to postpone that to a later session or rather discuss it in the forum
19:27:22<!Newton> Zapper: what do you mean?
19:27:32<+Matthi> "Where do we start"
19:27:37< Ape> Matthi brought up an important issue. We have to make this game playable as quickly as possible.
19:27:55<!Maikel> That's what this meeting is for.
19:28:14<!ck> For me it's OK to discuss it today I guess. Not sure I have a strong opinion though.
19:28:15<!Newton> hmm, its not optimal that only the devs know of the agenda while the meeting itself is not moderated (=non-devs can talk too)
19:28:31<!Isilkor> Newton: move the agenda to the open forums then
19:28:35<!Isilkor> announcements or something
19:28:49<!Isilkor> or just post it here
19:28:54<!Newton> Ape, Asmageddon: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=328
19:29:04< Ape> Thanks
19:29:48<!Newton> okay, I think the organizational stuff is finished. I propose that next time, we'll just find another moderator, we dont need to define some specific order
19:29:53<!Newton> point 2, status updates
19:30:16<!Newton> lets take the turns from top to down from the nicklist
19:30:19<!Newton> ck?
19:30:31<!ck> I'm busy with the mesh animation stuff
19:31:03<!ck> Turned out to be not as easy as I thought to provide a somewhat general mechanism with an easy-to-use (C4Script) API
19:31:18< Asmageddon> That gobby is a clone of another program like that
19:31:21< Asmageddon> But guess that is unimportant
19:31:23< Asmageddon> sorry :P
19:31:39<!ck> The goal is basically to get the swimming animation correct
19:31:56< Asmageddon> IMO swimming animation is good
19:32:03<!Newton> Asmageddon, please
19:32:04< Asmageddon> a 'bit' strange, but good
19:32:05<!ck> It's displayed incorrect however
19:32:20< Asmageddon> Ok, sorry :(
19:32:42<!ck> I guess I'll end up with something similar to the Stack system I proposed in the forums
19:33:15<!ck> Where each node in the stack can again be a combination of multiple animations
19:33:41<!Newton> the stack system you posted in the forum is not implemented yet?
19:33:43<!ck> Probably this is not the right place to express my thoughts, but I'll add a documentation page once this is working as I want it
19:34:33<!ck> No, it isn't. It partly is on my computer only, but it turned out to be not as easy to use as I'd like it to
19:34:49<!Newton> ok
19:35:16<!ck> And after that there is many more mesh stuff to keep me busy for quite a while ;)
19:36:11<!ck> (like trying out fixed point math or perspective rendering)
19:36:18<!Randrian> re
19:36:23-!- Irssi: #openclonk-dev: Total of 25 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 20 normal]
19:36:28<!ck> Guess that's it from my side
19:36:53<!ck> So I think is it Isilkor's turn then
19:36:56<!Newton> .oO(wow, perspective rendering. Thats a feature I desire highly)
19:37:02<!Maikel> What about some models which use, UV,shaders(what do i know), is that hard to implement?
19:37:37<!ck> Maikel: not sure. I guess it's not hard, but requires some time
19:38:21<!ck> it's still on the agenda, just not with as much as priority as the ones I mentioned above
19:38:31< Ape> What is the point of perspective rendering if all the objects are on the same surface and has not much depth out of it?
19:38:59<!ck> The Clonk looks fine without, so it should be possible to get other (less complex?) model to do the same, right?
19:39:10<!ck> Ape: For ingame pictures basically
19:39:21<!Randrian> well the sprites for CR always were rendert orthogonally
19:39:32<!ck> As displayed for example in the HUD
19:39:46<!Newton> Ape: there has been already a discussion of that in the forum and it turned out that perspective rendering is applicable (and looks good) to a certain limit
19:39:50<!Isilkor> ck: The mesh rendering doesn't actually require fixpoint math, does it?
19:40:02<!Isilkor> It's just graphics anyway, so doesn't need to be in perfect sync
19:40:08<!Randrian> no, but attaching
19:40:14<!Randrian> attaching to bones needs that
19:40:17<!ck> Isilkor: No, but it is desirable to query vertex/bone positions in script
19:40:39<!ck> Randrian also suggested to make use of "ground bones" to aid in synchronizing the mesh animation with the object movement
19:41:11<!ck> That is, move an object according to a specific bone's position in the mesh
19:41:41<!ck> Of course the first step is to find out its impact on performance, and then we can still decide whether it's a good idea or not
19:42:54<!ck> (Another feature would be to mount a clonk correctly on a horse)
19:43:51<!Newton> as long as the bone position cant be queried but only certain meshes attached to it, the math doesnt have to be integer, no?
19:44:04<!Newton> (meshes, not objects)
19:44:30<!ck> Sure, but we might also want to put the Clonk as an object at the correct location
19:45:02<!ck> For collision detection to work correctly
19:45:06<!Newton> ah right, I was thinking of the sword in the hand of the clonk and such
19:45:31<!ck> In that case attaching just meshes should work (and that's even implemented already)
19:45:39<!Maikel> That's quite crucial.
19:46:55<!Newton> hm alright. I got some open items about mesh rendering too, but this doesnt belong here now. Ill get back to that later
19:47:07<!Newton> now, lets switch to Isilkor?
19:47:52<!Isilkor> My patch to implement >4 char C4IDs just needs some more polish, but otherwise seems quite solid
19:48:52<!Isilkor> There's obviously the problem of having optional definitions which would lead to syntax errors if they're used without checking
19:49:17<!Newton> optional defintions?
19:49:46<!ck> I think it's good to access those via C4Id, or a GetDefinition() loop, and to be able to rely on the required definitions to be available
19:49:50<!Isilkor> Stuff that you might want to check for, but isn't always loaded
19:49:54< Ape> Do we have a standard on the ID lenght? Should the names be as long as needed or should we prefer some a fixed lenght (like 4)?
19:49:58<!Maikel> Would that allow for C4IDs with variable length?
19:50:12<!Isilkor> They would allow for C4IDs of arbitrary identifiers
19:50:25<!Isilkor> so, things like OC_Library_Inventory
19:51:23<!Newton> I don't find the forum topic for that and I dont remember if this question has been discussed:
19:51:29<!Newton> are all C4IDs reserved words? In the sense that e.g. the C4ID of the clonk is 'Clonk': var Clonk = GetHiRank(0); Clonk->GetCategory()
19:51:49<!Isilkor> no, they aren't. They're just global constants.
19:52:32<!Newton> so I should not name a variable "Clonk", well but if I do, I can not access the global constant 'Clonk' in the scope of the variable 'Clonk'
19:52:38<!Newton> +?
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19:52:56<!Isilkor> yes, obviously. If you declare a local variable with the same name, it hides the constant.
19:53:09<!Isilkor> You can access it via C4Id("Clonk") though
19:53:26< Ape> I believe this is the forum topic for this: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=195
19:53:41<!Newton> cool, then thats not an issue. I guess the standard will be to id objects with a big first letter (Clonk), variables are normally named with a small first letter (clonk)
19:54:36<!Maikel> We could also name everything OC_*, but some sort of ID-list in the wiki wouldn't be a bad thing, I guess.
19:55:02<!Isilkor> In the absence of namespaces, we should still name it OC_*, even with an ID list.
19:55:16<!Newton> at least we should agree on some naming scheme as soon as the feature is ~done
19:55:30<!ck> Do we have some C4Script style guidelines somewhere?
19:55:33< Ape> Can't it be ID->Clonk or something like that?
19:56:03<!Zapper> Ape, that looks as if "ID" was an object
19:56:08<!Newton> ck: Clonkonaut started it once: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=4221;hl=style%20guidelines
19:56:35< Ape> Well it could be an object that is used to get the objects for IDs
19:57:09< loriel> I think it should be "Core_" or something rather than OC_, so it indicates where the IDs are from rather than trademarking them.
19:57:31<!Zapper> agreed
19:57:52<!Newton> hmm
19:57:55<!Newton> Core_Clonk?
19:58:03<!Newton> sounds a bit unnecessary
19:58:16<!ck> As unnecessary as OC_Clonk would be...
19:58:21<!Isilkor> Newton: Some kind of namespacing is necessary
19:58:32<!Isilkor> otherwise we'll get collisions
19:59:00< loriel> I am not entirely happy with the "OC_" name because at some point someone is going to want to rename the whole thing like it happened between CP, CE and CR at the least, and then there are all those outdated OC_ prefixes stuck all over the project :)
19:59:06<!Newton> how would the namespaces look?@Syntax
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19:59:20<!Zapper> There are still people who don't like the name "OpenClonk". I'd prefer Core/anything else over OC_
19:59:46< Ape> object.core.flint and object.apepack.megabomb?
19:59:57<!Zapper> I like the C++ style
20:00:06<!Newton> Core::Clonk
20:00:17<!Zapper> I think a point/-> should be reserved for example for stuff with real objects
20:00:21< loriel> On the other hand, a name like "Core" kind of prevents stuff from being split into a separate package at a later point, if that would be desirable.
20:00:23<!Maikel> Whatever types the easiest.
20:00:45<!ck> Well, we don't need to agree on a name right now
20:01:21< loriel> (I was just trying to start an argument about the name, not the syntax. If I understand this right, the _ thing would work right now without messing with the parser.)
20:01:28<!Isilkor> loriel: yes
20:01:43<!Isilkor> but foo::C4ID-> doesn't work anyway, so we can use :: to separate namespaces
20:02:16<!ck> I guess you mean C4ID::foo->? :)
20:02:29<!Isilkor> Uh... maybe ;)
20:02:55<!Newton> lets postpone that discussion of the name of the namespaces (and its syntax) to a later meeting. The feature is not finished yet anyway
20:03:08<!ck> I forum poll might also do it
20:03:18<!ck> once we have a few suggestions
20:03:28<!Maikel> C_
20:03:42<!Mimmo_O> or c.clonk
20:03:44<!Mimmo_O> c.hut
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20:04:09<!Newton> I'd say, let Isilkor do his thing and after the commit, we already have one suggestion (the one of Isilkor) and based on that, we can perhaps discuss it
20:04:11<!Mimmo_O> hallo clonkine
20:04:14< clonkine> hi
20:04:19<!Newton> its nothing we can't change later
20:04:38<!Maikel> Ok, my turn(we need to speed this up)
20:05:42<!Maikel> I tried to C4Script Disasters and some Animals, but got stuck for now because of the animations, and the scenario.txt interface might be changed.
20:05:50<!Newton> (yes, the temptation to start a discussion over the update is very high. I'll try to cut the discussion if it gets too long)
20:06:18<!Newton> the scenario.txt interface might be changed?
20:06:29<!Maikel> Also the with Command() System is somewhat hard to implement, basic AI stuff
20:06:53<!Zapper> AI stuff? like movement in a landscape?
20:06:57<!Zapper> or other AI stuff?
20:07:00<!Maikel> http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=326#pid5330
20:07:15<!Maikel> Well "Call"is only called once
20:07:25<!ck> What's the problem with animations? You mean the models not be loaded entirely?
20:07:30<!Maikel> yes
20:07:34<!ck> OK
20:08:20<!Maikel> So I guess it is nearly impossible to implement something like "Energy" in C4Script
20:08:35<!Zapper> ?
20:08:52<!Zapper> I don't know why you need the Call-Command. For periodic timers?
20:09:26<!Maikel> Ok you could do anything with effects
20:09:39<!Mimmo_O> ill take a shower now. im back in about 20 minutes.
20:09:45<!ck> Can't you just schedule another Call command in your callback?
20:10:19<!Newton> hmm, I am not sure myself what the exact problem is, but to clarify this problem shouldnt be part of the status update
20:10:24<!Newton> lets do that later, shall we?
20:10:30<!Maikel> Yes next.
20:10:40<!Zapper> Mimmo is gone. So, newton?
20:10:45<!Newton> ok
20:11:21<!Newton> the last 2 months or so I have been working on the script side of new controls (together with Sven2)
20:11:34<!Newton> and the hud
20:12:09<!Newton> basically to finish what I wrote in the HUD Konzept: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=297
20:12:36<!Newton> apart from few bugs and some missing engine features (in the bugtracker), its now done
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20:13:11<!Newton> the weapons-system if one can call it like that, is done, too. Again a few engine features are missing
20:13:42<!Newton> next I wanted to focus on A) Gamepad controls and B) menus
20:13:47<!Sven2> Hey
20:14:01<!Zapper> Also the close combat weapons?
20:14:06<!Zapper> Or just the ranged ones?
20:14:21<!Newton> for B) I have to confess that I can't do so much script side, so I am waiting for - hi Sven2! - Sven2 to do something in that case ;-)
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20:14:51<!Zapper> Or, did you do the object-side (like, real weapons) or the interface in the Clonk for weapons?
20:14:53<!Newton> for A), i wanted to wait how the transfer-contents-with-menus ( B) ) turns out
20:15:14< clonkine> poor Sven2
20:15:19<!Newton> Zapper: if you look at the bow, there is not much of a "system" there, it is not needed either
20:15:44<!Zapper> Otherwise the "weapons system" (aka the templates) for close combat weapons would be what I would do next
20:15:55<!Randrian> well I started to implement a bit the sword and the animation side of it; the strike animation and so
20:15:55<!Newton> The ControlUse* commands are basically enough for weapons. A little procedure-check here, a delay there and done is the weapon script
20:16:49<!Zapper> Randrian, imo we should have it that way that we have one template and the weapons just have to implement some callbacks (like in hazard)
20:16:53<!Newton> Ringwaul actually tried to create such a template in the tradition of hte Hazard-weapons-template, but it didnt turn out to be too useful
20:17:04<!Maikel> Well it get's harder if for example two swords hit each other, or?
20:17:10<!Zapper> for example!
20:17:17<!Newton> Zapper: Have a look at the bow. There is no need for a system
20:17:31<!Randrian> well two swords that shall hit each other will be difficult.
20:17:37<!Randrian> I would pefere a blocking animation.
20:17:52<!Randrian> not just some random "hit" of two swords.
20:18:06<!Newton> but before we dive into some kind of discussion here if a basic object to include from is wise or not, let me just mention one more thing and then Randrian has the word:
20:18:23<!Randrian> ok sorry
20:18:58<!Newton> I created some kind of ammunition system, based on a includable library object named "Stackable" (also posted it in the forum) which is from the concept similar to arrows
20:19:01<!Zapper> Well, Newton. The ideal weaponscript would look like that: func IsAmmunition(obj){return obj->~Isarrow();} func ShootingBehavior(){return STRAIGHT;} fiinished
20:19:35<!Newton> so the ammunition used for weapons and other stuff are actually still objects and also the objects which are shot (as opposed to hazard)
20:20:05<!Newton> I can tell you more abou the details later but for that, you should perhaps read the Bow- and Arrow-scripts first so that we are on the same level
20:20:08<!Newton> Randrian, your turn
20:20:13<!Zapper> I just read the bow script :<
20:20:54<!Randrian> well I have worked on the animations for the clonk.
20:21:16<!Randrian> for further progress it would be good to have ck's new animation system ready.
20:21:25<!Randrian> cause the script interface changes a lot with it.
20:21:39<!Mimmo_O> okay, re
20:22:25<!Randrian> I also think I have to change quite a bit about the rig, cause it isn't perfect for all types of animations yet.
20:22:39<!Randrian> well and all the animations still need some tweaks.
20:23:05<!Randrian> I also have made first steps with meshes attached to the clonk.
20:23:15<!Randrian> for example the clonk holding the sword and striking with it.
20:23:24<!Randrian> or the clonk holding the bow and animing with it.
20:23:42<!Newton> nice
20:23:53<!Randrian> its a bit difficult to get the orientation in Blender right, so the mesh is shown correct ingame
20:24:16<!ck> Let me know if there is something I can do in the engine to help you with that
20:24:32<!Randrian> the problem is, that when the mesh has a rotation in Blender (more precisly, the object of the mesh has a rotation assigned to it)
20:24:49<!Randrian> I think these rotations aren't shown ingame.
20:24:54<!Mimmo_O> ive done almost nothing :s i was just strawing around in the forum and posting smoe ideas, but nothing really special
20:25:14<!ck> Randrian: Would be cool if you can hand me a simple example object
20:25:20<!ck> I might have a look then
20:25:28<!Randrian> yes ok, I can make you an example.
20:25:56<!Randrian> I also got problems latly with exporting the female clonk, cause the animations somehow were wrong.
20:26:08<!Randrian> I don't quit know, if it was caused by Blender.
20:26:42<!Randrian> Blender can assign Armatures to meshes by parenting and also by using a modifier.
20:26:59<!Randrian> the female just had the armature parented, the male had both.
20:27:07<!Randrian> it was a bit strange.
20:27:45<!ck> maybe try whether it's also broken in an independant ogre mesh viewer. If so, make the model available to me and I'll see what I can do :)
20:27:46<!Zapper> As for me, I have not done much lately either. I started with an "animal" (mainly for experimenting with proplists and stuff) and thought I could do the close combat system next
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20:28:30< Randrian_> args internet...
20:28:32< Randrian_> <Randrian> yes ok, I can make you an example.
20:28:36< Randrian_> <Randrian> I also got problems latly with exporting the female clonk, cause the animations somehow were wrong.
20:28:38< Randrian_> <Randrian> I don't quit know, if it was caused by Blender.
20:28:40< Randrian_> <Randrian> Blender can assign Armatures to meshes by parenting and also by using a modifier.
20:28:42< Randrian_> <Randrian> the female just had the armature parented, the male had both.
20:28:44< Randrian_> <Randrian> it was a bit strange.
20:28:46< Randrian_> <Randrian> and I didn't manage to get the orientation of the bow right up till now.
20:29:09<!Newton> [20:28] Zapper: As for me, I have not done much lately either. I started with an "animal" (mainly for experimenting with proplists and stuff) and thought I could do the close combat system next
20:29:09<!Newton> [20:28] ck: maybe try whether it's also broken in an independant ogre mesh viewer. If so, make the model available to me and I'll see what I can do :)
20:29:45<!Mimmo_O> ive done almost nothing :s i was just strawing around in the forum and posting smoe ideas, but nothing certain for OC.
20:30:15< Randrian_> well the close combat system can be difficult, if it isn't done along with the animatiions.
20:30:47<!Newton> I also think that 90% of the close combat is animation-stuff as long as the system itself is not something elaborate
20:30:56< Randrian_> yes.
20:31:24<!Newton> (and with only one button=function available, it might be hard to do something elaborate ;-))
20:31:27<!Mimmo_O> will there be improvements in the close combat system?
20:31:31< Randrian_> well, the system can be more complex with the mouse move. Cliking and moving the mouse up could result in a strike up.
20:31:46<!Newton> yes, that would be possible
20:31:55<!Maikel> Someone else who wants to share what he/she was working on, I think we can end point 2
20:32:05<!Newton> Mimmo: I don't think that we stick in any way to the old system of "automatic fight"
20:32:11<!Zapper> <Newton> (and with only one button=function available, it might be hard to do something elaborate ;-)) <- well, I plan to use the acceleration of the clonk for stuff
20:32:12<!Mimmo_O> good
20:32:14<!Newton> well, there is still Sven2
20:32:16<!Mimmo_O> it was somehow terrible.
20:32:16<!Newton> @point 2
20:32:20<!Zapper> for example
20:32:30<!Maikel> Oh yes, Sry
20:32:36<!Newton> if he is still there
20:33:08-!- Randrian [~randrian@der.richard.im.euirc.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
20:33:09<!Maikel> A sword can also strike differently dependent on where you click relative to the clonk
20:33:12<!Zapper> Sven has no highlighting enabled as far as I know - will be quite hard to get him here :o
20:33:28<!Mimmo_O> hm, Maikel
20:33:30<!Newton> hmm, then perhaps later he returns
20:33:35<!Mimmo_O> that would result in just klicking and clicking
20:33:40<!Zapper> even later? :o
20:33:44<!Mimmo_O> then, suddenly, you stop fighting and accidently throw something away
20:33:53<!Newton> but well, I know what he was working on, so I can sum it up
20:34:04<!Zapper> I think throwing stuff away should _always_ be just on Shift+Click btw
20:34:08<!Zapper> Just to throw that in
20:34:15<!Mimmo_O> yes, same here
20:34:26<!Maikel> No, not for gold and rocks
20:34:47<!Maikel> Everything with ControlUse() { return true;} already does that
20:35:09<!Zapper> Gold and Rocks don't have ControlUse(){return true;}
20:35:19<!Zapper> I think we should have one behaviour everywhere
20:35:28<!Newton> okay, this shouldn't be discussed now
20:35:39<!Newton> I noted it down as something to discuss later
20:35:50<!Maikel> k
20:35:56<!Newton> I'll sum up really short was Sven has been working on well, during silvester
20:36:32<!Newton> The PlrControls are not quite finished yet. Some features are missing, some features that have been documented already are also missing
20:36:32<!Sven2> Sorry, was afk
20:36:42<!Newton> but as you can see, most of it works...
20:36:48<!Newton> ah well, you have the word
20:36:50<!Sven2> Yes, menus are on the list
20:37:26<!Sven2> Well, I thought about re-implementing controls for classic menus (really just a few bugixes I think) and then allow custom dialogs
20:38:05<!Sven2> Custom dialogs should cover stuff like PeterW mentioned in the forum; the overhead building menus
20:38:50<!Sven2> Anyway, what kind of stuff is really missing in the engine right now?
20:39:10<!Sven2> I don't think it's menus, because those aren't used anywhere yet?
20:39:38<!Newton> how can I use menus if they are not implemented yet? I need non-modal menus ^^
20:40:12<!Sven2> Is that in the bugtracker yet?
20:40:35<!Sven2> I believe it can be done quite easily. Though getting multiple menus per viewport might be difficult
20:40:41<!Newton> the other stuff that is 'really' missing are (from my side) a few single features that are all in the bugtracker
20:40:46<!Sven2> How are you supposed to control them by gamepad if they're not modal?
20:41:12<!Newton> the custom dialog stuff is not in the bugtracker though because I was thinking you have a concept for that
20:41:39<!Newton> Sven2: that is the question@how to control by gamepad
20:41:41<!Sven2> Basically, it's supposed to be a bunch of functions like CreateDialog, AddDialogItem, etc.
20:42:39<!Newton> (what we need is a concept for dialogs that work for mouse controls and non-mouse controls [gamepad] alike. I didnt think of anything yet)
20:42:47<!Sven2> Though I also thought about a different concept to have just CreateDialog(dlg) /UpdateDialog(handle, dlg) /DestroyDialog(handle) and have "dlg" be a proplist that contains all dialog information
20:45:31<!Newton> I am more concerned that a dialog-system that works good for mouse won't work with gamepad. I will start some topic to find how contents-transfer could work with gamepad (e.g. how it works in other console games with inventory and items)
20:45:46<!Newton> otherwise, I think we are done with point 2?
20:46:26<!Maikel> yes
20:46:27<!Sven2> You would need the concept of a "focused" dialog for gamepad control
20:46:55<!Newton> point 3, Website: Blog, Homepage, Wiki
20:46:56<!Sven2> Even if it's not "modal", i.e. you could have seperate controls for dialog and Clonk control if your gamepad permits it
20:47:45<!Mimmo_O> (Sven2, stop)
20:47:53<!Zapper> I still think we can use the forum as a "blog"
20:48:18<!Mimmo_O> i think we should use something like a blog
20:48:19<!ck> Do you mean these blogs that are built in into mwf?
20:48:33<!ck> Like they were enabled in the english forums some time ago?
20:48:37<!Zapper> no, mawic disabled them
20:48:41<!Zapper> or, kicked them out
20:48:46<!ck> oh.
20:48:47<!Zapper> just make a subforum "blogs"
20:48:48<!Newton> yes@kicked them out
20:48:49<!Maikel> About the wiki: That should contain (now and in the future) all faqs regarding OpenClonk development, but for now it should be structured somewhat more clearer.
20:48:54<!Mimmo_O> if someone who is interested in OC comes to the site, he just sees some black/white page with a forum... nooone wants to read through it just to gather some informations
20:48:55<!Zapper> Where would be the difference to any other blog software?
20:49:08<!Newton> err, lets stick to the blog topic a few minutes, Maikel
20:49:38<!Newton> I agree to Mimmo actually. A subforum with forum topics, this is not a blog
20:49:45<!Mimmo_O> its Blog, Homepage, Wiki, not Wiki, blabla :p
20:49:47<!Newton> as much as Announcements is not a blog
20:49:50<!Sven2> If people want to start blogs, they will. Otherwise, they won't. I don't think a forum will change this
20:50:03<!ck> Zapper: Does mwf provide RSS feeds?
20:50:14<!ck> Trackbacks?
20:50:14<!Zapper> Uh, I dont know
20:50:35<!Newton> ck: yes, I tried to enable them a few times but it does only work properly if you have a proper server, not some CGI enabled webspace
20:50:53<!Maikel> Wouldn't be useful to establish that we have enough writers, to have at least one item a week?
20:51:08<!ck> I think the serendipity ones work on my shared hosting account
20:51:15<!Mimmo_O> i think we will come to at least 3 a week
20:51:31<!Newton> ck: can you post your serendipity blog link?
20:51:36<!Mimmo_O> if every developer has acces to write a new entry
20:51:41<!ck> Newton: http://arbur.net/serendipity
20:52:40<!Newton> why is serendipity > wordpress? For our use?
20:52:52<!ck> I didn't say that.
20:53:11<!ck> I just said its RSS feeds work on my (quite limited) webspace account.
20:53:13<!Newton> err, I didnt mean it that way
20:53:28<!ck> It's the only blog system I have experienced with, I can't say anything about wordpress
20:53:29<!Newton> but I want to set up a system and asking you (you in plural) which one to prefer
20:53:57<!Mimmo_O> i have no opinion to that, due to my lack of knowledge about them
20:54:05<!Mimmo_O> i would say "one which is easy to use"
20:54:11<!Sven2> So, this is like a more relaxed "news" column?
20:54:31<!Newton> ck: can one integrate the blog (or e.g. "the newest 3 items of the blog") in the mediawiki or in some otherwise plain HTML file (e.g. the homepage)
20:54:58<!ck> Sven2: kind of... to keep interested partys informed in a structured way
20:55:10<!Newton> Sven2: a developers blog. Clonk.de didnt have this... well perhaps later with ClonkX, a little
20:55:27<!ck> Newton: I think so, with some scripting. My blog is aggregated on planet.gnome.org
20:55:46<!ck> which basically displays recent entries
20:55:49<!Maikel> Then the role of news, would just be to announce new versions and beta-test, etc.
20:56:26<!Newton> what i'd like is that we all have a single login for the blog
20:56:52<!ck> oh, why that?
20:56:56<!Newton> (so that the devs don't need to register in 4 places for the website)
20:57:07<!Newton> already now, with bugtrack, wiki and forum its a bit much, dont you think?
20:57:30<!ck> It might be interesting who wrote a particular blog entry though...
20:57:39<!ck> +to know
20:57:47<!Maikel> Well we can sign it with our names
20:57:51<!Maikel> yes @ newton
20:58:31<!Newton> ok, Ill first install Serendipity and then we can play around with it a little before we finally settle with that
20:58:59<!Newton> next: wiki. Maikel?
20:59:27<!Maikel> About the wiki: That should contain (now and in the future) all faqs regarding OpenClonk development, but for now it should be structured somewhat more clearer.
20:59:40<!Maikel> A bit more structure would already do the job there.
21:00:02<!ck> Do you have something concrete in mind?
21:00:04<!Maikel> code style rules at the right place, etc.
21:00:25<!Maikel> Well there are numerous examples of opensource game sites
21:01:01<!Newton> hm, I dont see your ponit
21:01:04<!Newton> *point
21:01:17<!Maikel> I would separate the page in Getting started(to play clonk), Content development, Engine development
21:01:22<!Newton> the /Project page and everything below seems to be perfectly structured
21:01:38<!Newton> you mean the Home page?
21:02:04<!Maikel> No, for example the coding style stuff is missing
21:02:31<!Newton> hmm, right
21:02:38<!Newton> it was there somewhere though, no?
21:03:11<!Maikel> http://wiki.openclonk.org/w/Style_Guidelines
21:04:26<!Newton> hm anyway. I am not sure if we have to discuss this. The wiki was just grown how the people contributed it. Nobody will cry if you add some links and reorganize some pages
21:04:37<!Maikel> Indeed
21:06:00<!Newton> so, err. Go ahead ;-)
21:06:41<!Newton> Also, the links in the upper navigation are not out of concrete. If you want additional links or something, tell me
21:06:55<!Newton> which leads us to the homepage, I guess
21:07:03<!Maikel> I'd rather go to point 4, and leave that for now( we can discuss it in some weeks)
21:07:08<!Newton> ok
21:07:27<!Newton> goals, yeah
21:07:32-!- Randrian__ [~randrian@euirc-06a781a2.83.171.170.113.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
21:07:37<!Newton> but this requires that everybody is still here, i think
21:07:47<!Newton> motivation check!
21:07:48<!Mimmo_O> .
21:07:48<!Maikel> Yes HL?
21:07:56 * ck
21:08:00-Mimmo_O:#openclonk-dev- everyone is here!
21:08:14<!Zapper> ill be afk soon
21:08:29<!Sven2> Yes
21:08:30< Randrian__> what is the question? I was just disconnected
21:08:43<!Newton> if all are stil lthere, because we move to point 5
21:08:44<!Newton> Goals
21:08:52< Randrian__> \me is here
21:09:02 * Ape is here
21:09:09<!Newton> Maikel mentioned in the forum, that we need to set reachable goals (and make them public)
21:09:12<!Mimmo_O> *point 4
21:09:13<!Isilkor> You want to go to point 4 if everyone is here, but then rather go to 5?
21:09:17<!Isilkor> I don't quite get it
21:09:24<!Newton> oops
21:09:27<!Newton> sorry, point 4
21:09:34<!Maikel> So I would like to have a somewhat playable game before the OCM in april. That is some melee scenario's where one can use some weapons, flints dynamite, catapult, and test the clonk's controls
21:09:59<!Sven2> Skyrace is playable ;)
21:10:12<!Mimmo_O> i want the catapult to be controllable like the on in CX
21:10:18<!Mimmo_O> with catapulting clonks.
21:10:26<!Mimmo_O> (i already have scripted something like this for CR)
21:10:31<!Newton> that means, focus on melee and race, tools and weapons rather than buildings and such (until the OCM), right?
21:10:48<!Maikel> Yes, but if we provide like 5-10 scenario's (Melee's & Races) we can have our first "release"
21:11:03<!Zapper> I am still eager to build the weapons system :]
21:11:16<!Maikel> Yes newton
21:11:27<!Mimmo_O> imo we need bows, muskets, swords, shields
21:11:29<!Sven2> Concerning Races: I thought about calling them "Parcour" instead
21:11:30<!Mimmo_O> maybe axes
21:11:32<!Maikel> Has anyone something against this plan?
21:11:33<!Sven2> So we'd have a new name :)
21:11:39<!Mimmo_O> sven: good idea
21:11:42<!Zapper> I dont @maikel
21:11:51<!ck> Sounds reasonable. Might be good to be a bit more specific though.
21:11:54<!Mimmo_O> me neither
21:11:57<!Zapper> But we should also do the planned landscape improvements before the first "release"
21:12:03-!- Randrian_ [~randrian@euirc-a663a039.83.171.156.179.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
21:12:08<!Maikel> Yes that's what I'd like to do now
21:12:10<!Zapper> Be it proper hiding of the pixels (as discussed) or the polygon stuff
21:12:22<!Newton> that goal is very reachable, I think. Too bad that this means that we dont do anything with production lines, buildings, mining etc. (until then at least). But the good thing is that we are not dependent on the dialog system up and running -> I can start with gamepad controls
21:12:48<!Newton> what landscape improvements, Zapper?
21:12:53<!Newton> ah
21:13:11<!Zapper> I mean, I zoomed in (to be able to see my Clonks!) and was like ":("
21:13:14<!Maikel> Personally I prefer settling too, but well Melee's are played so much more.
21:13:20<!Sven2> I think, most importantly, the landscape shouldn't be a blurry mess when zoomed in
21:13:30<!Mimmo_O> agreed
21:13:51<!Newton> well, I have been working on the polygon stuff but it is now frozen. It's my bachelors work and needs more time now (needs to be scientific and stuff ;-) )
21:14:05<!ck> This basically requires higher resolved textures, right?
21:14:11<!Newton> I'll probably work on that after I finished gamepad controls and my exams are over
21:14:17<!Sven2> I think PeterW had a simple approach to use a 3x zooming algorithm
21:14:22<!Sven2> (gp3x?)
21:14:27<!Mimmo_O> (textures, i posted a link in the forum for cool ice-textures)
21:14:32<!Mimmo_O> (hahaha, "cool ice textures")
21:15:00<!ck> Sven2: I think the straight-forward way turned out to be too slow performance-wise if I remember correctly
21:15:07-!- JC-weg is now known as JCaesar
21:15:24<!ck> I'm not sure this was the end of the story though
21:15:29<!Sven2> Zooming the 8 bit landscape with some algorithm, then turn texture indices into textures in a shader?
21:17:13<!ck> Is there another way?
21:17:21<!Maikel> Should we start specifying what needs to be done to reach the goal(Etherpad?)
21:17:43<!Newton> mh
21:18:05<!Newton> I guess its clear whats our goal until the last week of march
21:18:26<!Newton> so yeah, I guess we can move to etherpad to do some concepts of what should be inside the "release"
21:18:33< Ape> Aren't we supposed to play with Gobby :D
21:18:47<!Newton> wait a moment
21:18:54<!Maikel> *shameredcheeks* I havn't installed it
21:19:02<!Maikel> afk 2min
21:19:06<!Newton> http://etherpad.com/Clonkpad
21:19:17<!Newton> hmm
21:19:22<!Newton> there is only one document in etherpad?
21:19:32<!ck> Yes, I think so
21:25:33<!Newton> I started a gobby session
21:25:41<!Newton> 92.224.25.239 port 11111 (version 0.4.12 stable)
21:25:43<!Maikel> 4.12?
21:25:46<!Newton> yes
21:25:51<!Maikel> reinstall
21:28:31<!Newton> hm whats that
21:28:38<!Newton> did gobby jsut crash?
21:28:43<!Newton> ah, it was just randrian
21:29:00<!Maikel> How can I see which colour is who?
21:29:27-!- Mortimer [~Martin@euirc-74bf8acf.extern.uni-duisburg-essen.de] has quit [Client exited]
21:29:31<!ck> Maikel: Klick the user list item in the toolbar
21:29:37-!- Randrian_ [~randrian@euirc-1ce9338b.83.171.188.109.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
21:30:11<!Sven2> I cant get into a document...
21:30:53<!ck> touble click an item in the document list, or select one and hit subscribe
21:31:26<!Sven2> Doesnt work
21:31:32<!Sven2> My chat doesnt seem to arrive either
21:32:02-!- Randrian__ [~randrian@euirc-06a781a2.83.171.170.113.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
21:32:08<!Sven2> And I lose connection after a while
21:32:23<!Newton> shit :o
21:34:02<!Sven2> Just changed my color
21:34:14<!Sven2> I can see your chat though
21:34:22<!ck> no idea. Does gobby.0x539.de:6522 work?
21:34:50<!Sven2> I installed the old over the new. Is that a problem?
21:35:35<!Sven2> Where is gobby.0x539.de:6522?
21:35:58<!ck> I can't think of any problems out of my head, but you might try reinstalling it into a clean directory
21:35:58<!Isilkor> newton
21:36:01<!Isilkor> the wiki is broken
21:36:02<!Isilkor> editing pages fails
21:36:21< s_m_w> I cannot get into any documents either. After double clicking, subscribe is greyed out but it still doesn't work
21:36:30<!ck> Use gobby.0x539.de as hostname and 6522 as port. It's another (public) server.
21:37:56<!Sven2> I reinstalled and got in now
21:41:56<!Sven2> Hm. Have to leave for the cinema now
21:43:21<!Maikel> We'll change stuff later I guess
21:43:29<!Maikel> on later occasions.
21:53:18<!Newton> Isilkor: whoa??
21:53:49<!Isilkor> "A database query syntax error has occurred. [...] 1146: Table 'db1144497-wiki.wiki_tag_summary' doesn't exist (localhost)"
21:53:51<!Newton> what page exactly, Isilkor? For me it works
21:53:59<!Newton> hmm
21:54:01<!Isilkor> every page
21:54:19<!Newton> odd, for me it works
21:54:30<!Newton> ill be on that problem as soon as we are done in gobby
21:54:48<!Newton> i hope we can bring it to something substantial
21:55:42-!- Ape [~ape@euirc-7fdc53a9.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client exited]
22:03:59-!- Phantomwipf is now known as Phanto^away
22:04:05-!- Randrian__ [~randrian@euirc-370b466d.83.171.161.68.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
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22:18:07<!Newton> shit
22:18:09<!Newton> gobby crashed
22:18:12<!Newton> someone save it
22:18:58<!ck> hrm
22:18:58<!ck> done
22:19:07<!Newton> can you reopen it?
22:19:09<!Mimmo_O> hab
22:19:24<!Mimmo_O> just reopen
22:19:45<!ck> on 0x539.de only, don't have access to the firewall here
22:20:02<!Newton> meaning you cant host?
22:20:06<!Mimmo_O> Newton, just rehost, ill paste everything
22:20:19<!ck> in that case all colors are lost
22:20:24<!Newton> oh, crashed again
22:20:26<!Newton> I'll reopen
22:20:45<!Newton> if you give me the session file
22:20:57<!Mimmo_O> they will also be lost if you save normally
22:21:16<!Newton> normally no
22:21:18<!Mimmo_O> i could only save the documents
22:21:23<!ck> mom
22:22:12<!Mimmo_O> whatever, i have to go
22:22:28<!Newton> yeah, it took really long
22:22:43<!ck> http://www-ekp.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de/~burgmeier/gobby.obby
22:22:46<!Newton> I want to try to get that meeting to an end too
22:23:23<!Newton> but the gobby session is the last point anyway
22:23:24<!Mimmo_O> if it does not work
22:23:28<!Mimmo_O> http://de.wiki.nosebud.de/paste/xlK44YJo.html
22:23:41<!Newton> because the distribution of work is already in the session
22:23:45<!Newton> reopen
22:24:05<!Mimmo_O> im off now
22:24:12<!Maikel> ok
22:24:18<!Maikel> cu
22:24:23<!Mimmo_O> good night
22:24:26<!ck> cya
22:24:35-!- Mimmo_O [~mimmoisgr@euirc-ae063962.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ]
22:35:46<!Newton> err
22:35:51<!Newton> someone save the session please
22:36:01<!Newton> perhaps its just Randrian pinging out
22:36:38<!ck> it's still running, isn't it?
22:37:10-!- Randrian_ [~randrian@euirc-27f0becc.83.171.182.120.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
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22:44:32<!Newton> this meeting was even longer then I expected
22:44:41<!Newton> I'll summarize the Gobby session
22:45:14<!Maikel> Isolko-r would do the log
22:45:15<!Newton> and try to fix the wiki so that Isilkor can post the summary of the status updates (and point 3) in the wiki
22:45:27<!Newton> isilkor was not in the session
22:45:34<!Maikel> of irc
22:45:46<!ck> I can add the log of the gobby session
22:45:47<!Newton> thats what i said
22:46:21<!Newton> but first ill eat something. after that, wiki.
22:46:39<!Maikel> For next meetings anyone who is willing to contribute should be invited, and we should set up some guidelines to make the meetings shorter
22:48:48-!- stevi is now known as stevi`off
22:48:52<!ck> true. I still hope this was only so long because it was the first one
22:49:14<!ck> Maybe we'll also get some experience in constraining ourselves to the agenda :)
22:49:33<!Maikel> In our dreams maybe :P
22:49:44<!ck> Heh, give us a chance :)
22:49:51<!Newton> phew, by the way
22:50:04-!- Luchs^away is now known as Luchs
22:50:09<!Newton> i find a meeting over IRC a lot more tiresome then in real life
22:50:12<!Newton> but it was 4 hours too
22:50:31-!- Mortimer [~Mortimer@euirc-82816ebb.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
22:51:26<!Maikel> You should do your thesis on teleportation ;)
22:51:48<!ck> we can try video conferencing next time :P
22:55:10<!Maikel> Got to go "The emergence of gravity through holographic scenario" is waiting for me at 9:00
22:55:13<!Maikel> Bye
22:56:51-!- Maikel [~maikeldev@euirc-49e109b6.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Life is too colorful...]
22:59:23<!Newton> ck, can you reproduce isilkors problem?
22:59:41<!ck> Newton: let me check. Just try to edit any page?
23:00:07<!Newton> yes
23:00:23<!Newton> for me, it works. Thats why im puzzled
23:00:25<!Isilkor> for example http://wiki.openclonk.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=edit
23:00:31<!Isilkor> A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was:
23:00:33<!Isilkor> (SQL query hidden)
23:00:35<!Isilkor> from within function "IndexPager::reallyDoQuery (LogPager)". MySQL returned error "1146: Table 'db1144497-wiki.wiki_tag_summary' doesn't exist (localhost)".
23:00:51<!ck> Hm. Anybody knows my wiki password? %(
23:01:07<!ck> ah
23:01:08<!Newton> ah, right
23:01:16<!ck> yeah, same error
23:01:18<!Newton> for Project, it does not appear
23:01:21<!Newton> but for the homepage
23:01:32<!ck> by clicking Isilkor's link, that is
23:01:52<!ck> I can edit the page though when I navigate properly
23:02:01<!Isilkor> I got there by navigating properly :(
23:02:03<!ck> (I just added "This is a test" at the bottom of the main page)
23:02:27<!ck> ah
23:02:33<!ck> It only occurs for the Main Page for me
23:02:37<!Isilkor> Actually, I get this for History as ell
23:02:38<!ck> But I can edit the Project page for example
23:03:05<!Newton> well, yes the table does not exist
23:03:14<!Newton> the thing is
23:03:32<!Newton> the day before yesterday, i updated to the newest stable mediawiki
23:03:49<!Isilkor> http://wiki.openclonk.org/w/Special:RecentChanges does it too
23:03:51<!Newton> and during upload of the new files, I saw that I already had the newest update, I just forgot to write it down
23:03:55<!Isilkor> so something major is broken I think
23:04:17<!Newton> so I stopped replacing the files during the FTP upload (but not IN one file, after one file)
23:04:33<!Newton> because i assumed i could only have replaced the same files with the same files
23:04:37<!Newton> guess it wasnt the case
23:04:44<!Newton> so what ill do is reinstall the whole thing
23:04:54<!Newton> and the uploading via FTP takes ages
23:05:27-!- Kohlrabi [~Kohlrabi@euirc-621841f3.nosebud.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
23:05:37-!- Randrian__ [~randrian@euirc-be85727b.83.171.153.191.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
23:07:21<!Newton> during the upload I'll disable the wiki
23:09:32-!- Randrian_ [~randrian@euirc-27f0becc.83.171.182.120.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
23:12:16<!Newton> Zapper: till when are you still online?
23:12:26<!Zapper> till clonkine lets me go
23:12:46<!Newton> we wanted to talk about weapon systems and base objects
23:13:17<!Zapper> uh
23:13:18<!Zapper> mh
23:13:25< clonkine> she won'T
23:14:24<!Zapper> hm
23:14:44<!Zapper> I think I am too tired right now - tomorrow maybe?
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23:15:49<!Newton> ok, maybe
23:19:57-!- s_m_w is now known as smw
23:44:41<!Newton> ck?
23:48:35<!ck> Newton
23:48:46< clonkine> ck, newton?
23:48:49< clonkine> ;)
23:49:08<!Newton> you said during the status update that you are basically trying to get the swimming right
23:49:14<!Newton> with all these stack-changes
23:49:23<!ck> right
23:49:26<!Newton> but what about günthers proposal to just use SetObjDrawTransform?
23:50:03<!Newton> for rotation
23:50:07<!ck> I'd like to avoid SetObjDrawTransform if possible
23:50:16<!ck> But that's not even the point
23:50:33<!ck> The problem is not only with the swimming but with the animation blending
23:50:48<!ck> so the same problem of incorrect blending might happen for other animations as well
23:51:17<!Newton> ah, well then
23:52:01<!Newton> I just think that providing 4 different swimming animations for every direction one seems to be the wrong approach
23:52:12<!Newton> better would be, to be able to set a rotation of the animation
23:52:33<!Newton> because i can really imagine that we want to rotate the clonk while climbing or hangling a little
23:52:39<!Newton> yeah even while running
23:53:05<!Newton> and partly really much while jumping and tumbling
23:53:45<!ck> that can also be done via an animation... i'm not even sure it will look correct when just rotating one animation either
23:53:46<!Newton> having to create animations which are oriented slightly differently seems to be... err not the right way
23:54:22<!Newton> you mean a general "rotate" animation that is combineable with any other animation?
23:55:15<!ck> I had a different one for every possible animation in mind
23:55:26<!ck> Though I'm not sure what makes most sense there from a modelling point of view
23:55:43<!ck> that is, whether there would be a difference in rotation for walking/climbing
23:56:04<!Newton> for walking and climbing... yeah for that you might be right
23:56:21<!Newton> but definitely not for jumping and not for hangling
23:58:07<!ck> Maybe let's just try out both ways and see which one works better
23:58:30<!ck> or try one, and switch if we encounter inherent problems
23:58:56<!ck> But I think these kind of problems can be solved by trying things out and experimenting rather than by thinking too much ;)</pre>