Clonk-Karl: Today's meeting log+summary

2010-02-08T23:03:44Z

Today's meeting log+summary

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== Summary ==
* Isilkor: Is working on a loader for the binary ogre mesh format, to speed up loading
* Newton: Added SNES-like controls, added nightly builds and Masterserver to oc.org
* Maikel: Did random experiments with rope, melee goal and disasters, nothing sustainable so far
** Standard background for Goals/Rules/Environment graphics? Discussion in the [http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=364 forums].
* ck: Set up nightly builds, implemented perspective mesh rendering for pictures
* Sven: Work on making messages work again in preparation for tutorial scenario(s)
* How to redistribute d3dx9_40.dll required for nightly builds?
** Just link to the Microsoft installer for legal reasons
* Clear [[Roadmap]] with concrete tasks and assignments for people who are willing to contribute

== Full Log ==
<pre>18:38:37-!- Sven2 [_ve_2@goldwipf.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
18:38:40-!- mode/#openclonk-dev [+ao Sven2 Sven2] by ChanServ
18:45:39-!- Newton [~quassel@euirc-26959e68.vpn.uni-hamburg.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
18:45:42-!- mode/#openclonk-dev [+ao Newton Newton] by ChanServ
18:49:16<!Newton> lets get over the status updates stuff fast this time
18:49:45<!Newton> I dont have much time and normally we already know what the others have been doing via forum/mercurial
18:50:21<!Sven2> Via HG log
18:50:54<!Newton> so I propose that we really just summarize what have been done this time. Status updates are not that important that they should take so much of the meetings time
18:51:42<!Maikel> I agree, Isilkor has already done his, since he will only sporadically look here
18:51:53<!Maikel> Here it is:
18:51:55<!Maikel> [18:21:00] [!Isilkor] As a heads-up, I'm currently occupied with exam preparations, so I'll probably look at this channel only sporadically this evening
18:51:55<!Maikel> [18:22:09] [!Isilkor] I'm implementing a loader from the Ogre binary format, which should speed up loading times significantly, and I've already done the part that reads the ogre binary stuff into a memory representation similar to the XML one
18:52:04<!Maikel> Sry for the HLs ;)
18:52:24<!Newton> cool
18:52:28-!- Randrian [~randrian@der.richard.im.euirc.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
18:52:28-!- mode/#openclonk-dev [+ao Randrian Randrian] by ChanServ
18:52:29<!Newton> lets start at point 19:00
18:52:48<!Maikel> hm I indeed posted it too soon...
18:56:17<!Newton> If nobody objects, I'll do the moderation again
18:56:48<!Mimmo_O> cant... hold... back...
18:57:12<!Mimmo_O> http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3606530
18:57:29<!Maikel> denied
18:57:45<!Mimmo_O> !
19:00:08-Newton:#openclonk-dev- meeting starts now, report in
19:00:30 * Mimmo_O is there
19:00:31<!Newton> Alright, welcome to this weeks meeting
19:00:38<!Zapper> Uh, didnt know it was now :o
19:00:44<!Zapper> ill just report that I have nothing to report and join later
19:01:25<!Randrian> \me is here
19:01:53<!Newton> I want to speed up the status reports part a lot, so this time lets just summarize in one or two sentences what we have done. The rest should be in the forum etc. If there is need for discussion, we can postpone after the status updates
19:02:12 * Mimmo_O has done nothing !
19:02:21<!Newton> I'll start
19:03:20<!Newton> Had my exams, but after these I started with the gamepad controls. You can currently only test them by copying the SNES_Gamepad control set into the standard WASD_Mouse control set. I am stuck with some non-existing engine features but hopefully Sven2 will do something about that some time.
19:03:57<!Newton> as you all experienced, I updated the forum software, set up B_E's masterserver (boom.openclonk.org) and CK's nightly builds
19:04:12<!Newton> Randrian?
19:04:37<!Randrian> I worked on the turning animations for the clonk.
19:04:53<!Randrian> he now doesn't use FlipDir anymore, but really turns the clonk.
19:05:11<!Randrian> also worked a bit on the bow (especially turning) and digging
19:05:35<!Randrian> who's next?
19:05:42<!Newton> looks great btw
19:05:57<!Newton> you call someone, that one is next
19:06:09<!Randrian> Sven?
19:06:11<!Maikel> yes it does, although the dust seems so random.
19:06:29<!Randrian> the dust should be roughly synchronized with the shovel
19:07:06<!Newton> I fear that sven is afk again. Maikel, would you continue?
19:07:59<!Maikel> Yes I have done some random stuff, tried a rope, did a little disasters, a little melee, but no significant progress
19:08:00<!Newton> Maikel?
19:08:54<!Maikel> For the meteorite and rockfall I need some graphics.
19:09:09<!Maikel> and well all menu graphics are missing also.
19:09:25<!Newton> jup, just post them as requests in the forum
19:09:46<!Maikel> Ok I will do that after the meeting
19:10:11<!Maikel> But we need some standard on menu background, for rules environment and goals
19:10:17 * Guenther has also nothing, and is now away for a bit
19:10:34<!Newton> hmm alright
19:11:11<!Newton> then, it looks like we are through
19:11:18< ck_> :(
19:11:22<!Newton> ah
19:11:29<!Newton> I interpreted the _ as away
19:11:48<!Newton> go on
19:11:52< ck_> I basically did the nightly builds and perspective rendering
19:12:06< ck_> plus a few bugfixes wrt mesh rendering
19:12:30< ck_> The _ just means that I rejoined since I have been disconnected ;)
19:12:49<!Newton> ok
19:13:25<!Newton> <3 perspective rendering btw
19:13:46<!Newton> you tried to have it rendered with perspective ingame too?
19:13:47< ck_> was much trial+error to set it up correctly ;)
19:13:53< ck_> No
19:14:33< ck_> As written in the bug report I don't think that's worthwhile
19:14:41<!Newton> I am really looking forward to that. My flatmate already called me/us insane that we use RTR but only display it (e.g. houses) flatly
19:14:41< ck_> But if the majority feels different I'll try
19:15:31<!Newton> in this one?: http://bugs.openclonk.org/view.php?id=106
19:15:52< ck_> Well I don't see the problem your flatmate describes
19:15:55< ck_> yes
19:16:14-!- Randrian_ [~randrian@euirc-728ebde7.212.114.232.244.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
19:16:24<!Sven2> rere
19:16:35<!Newton> ok
19:16:39<!Newton> Sven, you are on
19:17:18<!Newton> from the HG logs, I am guessing you have been working on the preconditions to make a good tutorial? ;-)
19:17:33<!Sven2> Yes. Mostly working on messages
19:18:09<!Sven2> Concerning gamepad control, I do not have a gamepad with a stick. My gamepad uses the classic all-or-nothing SNES cross
19:19:36<!Newton> I have two, one SNES-like and one new dualshock-like (~12€). But there are still issues with the SNES control too. Latest on the clonk meeting, I can give you a dualshock ;-)
19:19:40< Ape> We should support both analog sticks and those SNES crosses
19:20:11<!Newton> but I gather that gamepad control is not urgent anyway - not part of the goal we set ourselves
19:20:42-!- Randrian [~randrian@der.richard.im.euirc.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
19:21:00<!Newton> Ape: yes, thats my goal. SNES already works. Try it out. See here how to test it: http://bugs.openclonk.org/view.php?id=130
19:21:33<!Sven2> That's C4D_Foreground. Not a bug, by the way
19:21:44<!Newton> ok, we are through with status updates. 22 min
19:21:47< Ape> Let's see if I can play clonk with the combination of dance pad and a wiimote+nunchuck
19:22:25< Ape> (Both are working as joysticks [or keyboard keys if wanted] on my computer)
19:22:26<!Newton> Sven2: Shouldn't Foreground be just in Foreground? Without any parallax modification?
19:22:48<!Sven2> No. C4D_Foreground should never be used for regular ingame objects, because they would interfere with the GUI
19:23:36<!Sven2> GUI objects are rendered in a different context (different C4FacetEx parameters), where the scrolling isn't even known any more
19:23:38<!Newton> Well, for the cursor used by gamepad control, I need a category which is in the foreground, ignores the fow and doesn't zoom (always stays the same size)
19:24:00<!Newton> then why isn't it called C4D_Gui?
19:24:15<!Sven2> Tradition I guess
19:24:16<!Newton> and why does the Gui object need to be C4D_Parallax too? (Or doesnt it have to be?)
19:24:30<!Sven2> It doesnt have to be. That's just a relic from how things used to be setup
19:25:10<!Newton> I see
19:25:28<!Newton> and how do I make my cursor foreground, non-parallax and non-zooming?
19:25:40<!Newton> (like gui only not parallax)
19:26:36<!Sven2> I think that's not possible yet. I guess we'd need some new mechanism for that
19:26:44<!Newton> anyway, I guess it is currently not really possible to do this. We might want to discuss this later (in the bugtracker) in context of a little C4D_Category overhaul
19:27:17<!Newton> it is too also not very urgent as its part of cosmetics of gamepad controls
19:27:20<!Maikel> Do we even need those C4D_Select* categories?
19:27:30<!Sven2> Yes. I would probably not make it a category, but some property that allows you to "Follow" an object in GUI coordinates
19:28:06<!Sven2> This could also be useful for stuff like an arrow shown at the side of the screen, pointing towards the goal when it's not in view
19:28:48<!Maikel> Not in view, is not defined by the screen borders with the current FoW
19:29:09<!Sven2> Yes, it will require engine magic
19:29:34<!Newton> oh btw Maikel, you still on that homepage for the openclonk website?
19:30:03<!Maikel> Not really, I have no clear structure in mind.
19:30:36<!Sven2> As a workaround, I'd just do it as a normal C4D_Living object attached to the Clonk for now
19:31:42<!Newton> its working right now, i just want to disable zoom for that object
19:31:57<!Newton> anyway, somehting we need to talk about?
19:32:12<!Mimmo_O> yes
19:32:12<!Maikel> Let me just ask something about the hud, will one only be able to view the goal there, or also rules and evironmental objects?
19:32:21<!Mimmo_O> why is the masterserver called "Boom"?
19:32:36<!Newton> Maikel: right now only goal
19:32:46< ck_> Can any Windows guru give me an insight on whether we should ship d3dx9_40.dll with the nightly builds? See http://www.clonk.de/forum/en/topic_show.pl?pid=17337#pid17337 for reference.
19:32:49<!Maikel> and only one, or?
19:32:51<!Newton> Mimmo: just came to my mind
19:33:06<!Mimmo_O> probably my fault
19:33:14<!Mimmo_O> boomshire affected your mind..!
19:33:33<!Sven2> ck_: The standard way is to include or refer to a DirectX runtime installer
19:34:11< ck_> It's a 90MB thing, so I'm not sure whether inclusion is a good idea ;)
19:34:23<!Newton> Mimmo: If you have another idea for a name, tell me
19:34:30<!Sven2> The web installer is only 20kb
19:34:30<!Mimmo_O> Zoom
19:34:36<!Mimmo_O> Zoom.Openclonk.org
19:34:40<!Maikel> I'd like to have goals, rules, envi integrated in the hud and removed from the "End" menu, any opinions on this?
19:34:47<!Newton> why?
19:34:53<!Mimmo_O> but please not "masterserver.openclonk.org" this sounds... awful
19:35:04<!PeterW> Maybe there are DLL versions that are more common? @ d3dx9_40
19:35:04< Randrian_> well, this would be a bit too much for the hud, wouldn't it?
19:35:04< B_E> games.masterserver.org?
19:35:13< B_E> Ähm
19:35:19< B_E> *games.openclonk.org
19:35:24<!Mimmo_O> Maikel: i think there should be some kind of tag in the defcore if this goal/enviroment-object is displayed on the screen
19:35:32<!Maikel> I don't get the half way approach of just showing one goal
19:35:41< ck_> hm@web installer. So just inculde it and tell people to run it if the game complains about the missing DLL?
19:36:00<!Newton> Maikel: Unlike goals, where there is usually just one, there might be tons of rules and environment objects. To display them might be tedious. Whom interests if there are cicades or if there is a day/night circle?
19:36:14< Ape> After you have decided the address for the masterserver you should set is as default on the client (instead of clonk.de)
19:36:32<!Maikel> I just mean buttons in the hud that can be clicked and that open a menu, with the all these objects
19:36:42<!Isilkor> ck_: no, don't ship d3dx9 with the nightly, but with the dependencies
19:36:57<!Newton> Ape: can you open a bugtracker entry for that?
19:37:04< ck_> Isilkor: Yeah that's what I currently do
19:37:05< Ape> Newton: Sure
19:37:12<!Isilkor> but while d3d doesn't work anyway, can we for the time being just compile without that?
19:37:17< ck_> Plus I ship it with the snapshots as there are supposed to run out of the box
19:37:26<!Newton> B_E: how uninspired
19:37:41< ck_> mh, sure. If we don't forget to turn it on again later ;)
19:38:15<!Newton> Maikel: how about one button which opens a menu containing rules, environment objects, options, exit round etc?
19:38:26<!Maikel> that would be end?
19:38:35<!Newton> in the upper right corner, the "menu" button like in many games
19:38:47<!Maikel> Yes that would do also
19:38:48<!Sven2> We might want to change it so it's labeled "Menu"
19:38:57<!Sven2> The current player icon is a bit misleading
19:39:18< ck_> Isilkor: Mawic mentioned there might be legal problems doing so btw. Do you know more on that by chance?
19:39:19<!Maikel> The scoreboard also overlaps that part quite annoyingly.
19:39:33<!Sven2> It's not a very commonly pressed button :P
19:39:39<!Newton> I'd remove the player icon and put in a standard GUI item (like the clunker), calling OpenPlayerMenu();
19:39:59<!Newton> or the control which will not have to be synchronized then
19:40:00<!Isilkor> ck_: If I understand the legalese in my SDK correctly, you need to distribute the installer with every part of the DX runtime you distribute
19:40:09<!Sven2> Yes, I believe I already implemented that control
19:40:15<!Newton> yes
19:40:43< ck_> Isilkor: So I can just add that 20kb web installer thing along with the DLL and be done with it?
19:40:51<!Sven2> It's called "Menu"
19:41:03<!Sven2> Why would we need the DLL?
19:41:21<!Newton> ack@Scoreboard
19:41:23<!Newton> what to do about it?
19:41:38<!Isilkor> ck_: it says "DSetup32.dll DSetup.dll DXSetup.exe DXupdate.cab dxdllreg_x86.cab"
19:41:54<!Mimmo_O> make a scoreboard a constant part of the UI
19:42:03< ck_> Sven2: Well, it does not seem to be available on all systems
19:42:04<!Maikel> The hud was to be moved out of the landscape, or?
19:42:14<!Newton> what?
19:42:15<!Mimmo_O> yes, to the upperbar i reccomend
19:42:15<!Sven2> The scoreboard size can vary greatly depending on the scenario
19:42:31<!Isilkor> ck_: my SDK is pretty old though, you might have a different one
19:42:51<!Sven2> But the mouse can't be moved onto the HUD?
19:42:57<!Sven2> *onto the upperboard
19:43:11<!Sven2> It's locked into the viewport
19:43:25<!Maikel> well, If you didn't noticed it yet, but if you are at the screen bottom and not zoomed in very much, you can't throw in every direction, since you would then select an object from your inventory
19:43:35<!Newton> Sven: http://bugs.openclonk.org/view.php?id=66
19:43:37< ck_> Isilkor: The one which included a .lib which links against d3dx9_40.dll ;)
19:43:48< ck_> How did the CR installer go about that btw?
19:43:54<!Sven2> What about scrolling?
19:44:04<!Sven2> Whenever you hover a HUD object, you'd scroll ot the side
19:44:12<!Isilkor> ck_: is your d3dx MS anyway, or is it a reimplementation?
19:44:14 * Maikel tries that
19:44:37< ck_> Isilkor: The header is a reimplementation, the library file (.lib) is not
19:44:42<!Isilkor> I think we should avoid distributing d3dx while we're not having a working DX implementation, if only for legal reasons
19:44:45<!Mimmo_O> i think if youre at the bottom edge of the screen, the landscape itself should be lifted that much up, that inventory-objects are over the dark void outside the screen
19:44:50<!PeterW> CR used DX8, which doesn't have the whole d3dx9_mijon madness afaik.
19:45:06<!Mimmo_O> by the way, you can walk sideways outside of the landscape.
19:45:16-!- Matthi [~a@clonk-center.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
19:45:19<!PeterW> I'm not really sure why it was introduced in the first place.
19:45:24< ck_> Isilkor: Okay, good point.
19:46:24< ck_> I guess I'll just tell Newton to add a note to the page which advices people to install the DirectX runtime if d3dx9_40.dll is missing for them.
19:46:29< ck_> Probably most recent systems do have it anyway
19:47:08<!Newton> Sven: I'd like to abandon scrolling via touching the edges of the screen
19:47:19<!Maikel> scrolling to the side helps only at an finite amount of zoom levels.
19:47:34<!Newton> to some Peter-look-around version
19:47:39<!Sven2> As a tablet user, I wouldn't mind. It's an awkward action with the tablet anyway :)
19:47:46<!Isilkor> ck_: I think the d3dx stuff isn't installed system-wide by the DX SDK, but you're to distribute it with your app
19:47:51<!Newton> for mouse too imo
19:48:12<!Newton> the current clonk should be always centered in the middle of the screen
19:48:14<!PeterW> Should I commit that, btw?
19:48:36<!Newton> what
19:48:38< ck_> Isilkor: Oh. Well, then most people have it already since they have already other applications installed which use it :)
19:48:56<!PeterW> The Look-Around-Stuff I built at our meeting?
19:49:05<!Newton> ah ok
19:49:08<!Newton> yearh
19:49:11<!PeterW> I thought you were talking about that
19:49:17<!Newton> yes
19:49:39<!PeterW> Well, I still think that it will effectively kill all "drag/drop between inventory slots"
19:50:13<!Newton> of course if can still be optimized (as i said: clonk is always in the middle; issues with interaction with the buttons) but to be able to optimize it, it must be there ;-)
19:50:58<!Newton> well i still imagine to somewhat limit that look-around
19:51:18<!Newton> It could be also controllable/changeable by script@limit
19:51:32<!Newton> then you could look further with special objects, cannons etc
19:51:43-!- Randrian__ [~randrian@euirc-6f8c0e6d.212.114.228.133.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
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19:52:18<!PeterW> Limit in terms of "view stops moving at a certain distance"?
19:52:36<!Newton> yes. But smoothly of course ;-)
19:52:36<!Sven2> Intuitively, I'd say your scroll range is determined by the non-fogged area
19:52:45<!Sven2> But I guess that'd be weird if you have multiple Clonks
19:52:53<!PeterW> Or "view moves so slowly you can't move your view beyond a certain point before you hit the monitor border"?
19:52:58<!Newton> do we need fog when we got no scrolling?
19:53:10<!Sven2> Yes, the new fog is cool
19:53:29<!Newton> what happens when you hit hte monitor border?
19:53:29<!PeterW> Do we have a new implementation?
19:53:46<!Sven2> We do have the "fog influenced by landscape", right
19:53:54<!PeterW> Well, you can't move your mouse any further, I guess?
19:54:01<!PeterW> Or you start scrolling, if we leave that in :)
19:54:03<!Newton> Sven: I dont like it at all :( - it flickers around and is really klotzy
19:54:16<!Newton> Peter: I see
19:54:21<!Newton> anyway
19:54:26<!Newton> before the hour is over I'd like to come to some kind of conclusion regarding the goal to reach some playable release version
19:54:35<!PeterW> Yeah, the current FoW implementation leaves a lot to be desired
19:55:00<!Sven2> Should be possible to fix cloggy behaviour by correct fading times
19:55:03<!Newton> I mean to hide the material is a "nice" feature, but imo it just doesnt look good
19:55:10<!PeterW> I think of it as a first proof-of-concept.
19:55:35<!PeterW> My last plan was to make it a combination of line-of-sight and a bit of pathfinding
19:55:42<!Sven2> Being able to zoom out by a large amound and see all your Clonks is pretty cool as well
19:55:50<!PeterW> The last point should smooth the whole thing a lot.
19:56:03<!Sven2> Replaces the "overview map" you got in other games
19:56:55<!Newton> err
19:57:18<!Sven2> Concerning the release version: We already have our list of goals, don't we?
19:57:24<!Newton> lets get back to this goal topic again. I need to go in 10 min or so
19:57:29<!Sven2> A melee, some races/parkours, a tutorial
19:57:59<!Newton> Sven2: ~yes, but they are pretty inprecise
19:58:23<!Newton> what I see is that there is not a small number of possible content developers
19:58:38<!Newton> and during the last week we did a lot to make it easier to develop for OC
19:58:43<!Newton> e.g. automatic builds
19:58:49<!Newton> the reference online
19:58:53<!Newton> (properly)
19:59:00<!Newton> masterserver online
19:59:05<!Newton> and a general concept
19:59:21<!Maikel> We got one new developer!
19:59:39<!Newton> I think what we need now is some kind of ... well, get these people to helping the project at the spots where it is important
19:59:47<!Newton> armor or builder?
19:59:49<!Newton> or who?
19:59:59<!Maikel> the ukrainian
20:00:16<!Newton> jup, he renders. I like his material graphics
20:00:21<!Sven2> Maybe put the forum todo-list into a prominent wiki page
20:00:33<!Sven2> Linked from the top navigation as "Roadmap" or something
20:00:51<!Sven2> I always have trouble finding those old forum postings
20:01:33<!Newton> Sven2: What I am trying to get at is that I think a more precise to do with concrete objects to script. But your idea will also help
20:01:33<!Maikel> Similar would be one thread where every developer has one post which he edits, and one general post which contains all, if you don't like wikis
20:02:30<!Sven2> We do have a wiki. No reason to strangulate the forum
20:03:21<!Newton> OK lets do that
20:03:29<!Newton> Zapper?
20:03:35<!Maikel> In a wiki someone could for example add a stone, make a graphic and ask for a scripter?
20:03:36<!PeterW> How about stickying? ;) @ finding old forum postings
20:03:38<!Zapper> I am half here
20:03:39<!Newton> (+on that note)
20:04:05<!Newton> any news concerning melee weapons? You had your hand above that
20:04:06<!Sven2> You can't edit and snatch topics for yourself
20:04:38<!Zapper> Nope, I still have to do that. I didnt do much there last week
20:04:58< Randrian__> if you need animations, just say what you need
20:05:13<!Sven2> http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=332
20:05:18<!Sven2> Actually, it already is a forum page
20:05:20< Ape> Randrian__: Turning around on air while loading the bow
20:05:35<!Zapper> Randrian__, well, we will have to figure out how to do aiming with all the animations
20:05:36< Randrian__> perhaps having some models for the weapons would be good too, if you want good animations
20:05:45<!Zapper> an example would be Newton*s baseball bat
20:06:02< Randrian__> ok, shall I implement a baseball bat animation?
20:06:12< Randrian__> with just a simple stick model as bat?
20:06:23<!Newton> :-)
20:06:26<!Zapper> You could to that - but we would attach the bat later
20:06:50<!Zapper> mh, or he doesnt "aim" graphically
20:06:51< Randrian__> well I can only make good animations, if I have an idea, how the weapon will look.
20:06:59<!Zapper> ah, ok :)
20:07:53< Randrian__> what about making a list with all weapons an propably needed animations?
20:08:17<!Zapper> Baseball bat, Mariohammer
20:08:26<!Zapper> The axe could use the mariohammer animation
20:09:02<!Zapper> http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/mariohammer.jpg
20:09:03<!Zapper> btw
20:09:03< Randrian__> well, what exactly is a mariohammer?
20:09:13< Randrian__> ah ok
20:09:30< Randrian__> you answered my question, before I asked
20:10:15<!Newton> Randrian: I'd like that@list
20:10:30<!Sven2> I think it should be added to the Roadmap wiki page
20:10:39<!Sven2> Might be useful to have something telling you who is working on what
20:10:46<!Newton> but who will do this roadmap wiki page?
20:10:55<!Guenther> Something else: Do we want comments on the developer documentation again? The clonk.de onlinedocs didn't get too much notes, after all
20:10:57<!Sven2> I just tried to create it, but don't have my wiki password :(
20:11:24<!Newton> cant you have it mailed to you?
20:11:39<!Zapper> Guenther, would be in the spirit of the open community I think - while you could also just have a section in the forum for that
20:11:39<!Sven2> Didn't arrive yet. Is mailing set up properly?
20:11:57<!Newton> Günther: I already told Luchs, who said he is interested in overhauling the documentation that you said the comments werent so useful.
20:12:22<!Newton> And that a direct link to the creation of a bugtracker entry would be more senseful
20:12:29<!Guenther> Yes, that.
20:12:43<!Newton> Sven: I believe so
20:12:48<!Guenther> Yet-another-user-database is not really what we want.
20:13:44<!Zapper> Newton, wouldnt be very useful if there is no anonymous bugtracker posting enabled
20:13:45<!Guenther> Even it it's just the admin user list. Theoretically, the notes would be useful for others, in that they could have examples, but that never happened, and corrections are good in the bugtracker
20:14:08<!Zapper> mh. The anonymous thingy works that everyone can post there and that lead to spam, right?
20:14:38<!Zapper> why not making an account "anonymous:anonymous" that can post (but not edit?) stuff? that would keep the spambots away, or not?
20:14:43<!PeterW> Well, they are good in the documentation too @ corrections
20:14:50<!Zapper> "Direct link to bugtracker (you can post as anonymous:anonymous or guest:guest)
20:15:26<!PeterW> Who thinks about checking the bugtracker when he uses a certain bugged function, I mean.
20:15:38<!PeterW> And some bugs or semi-bugs have a pretty long life.
20:16:11<!Guenther> PeterW: Yes, but better in the bugtracker than not at all. And the post-without-account-and-wait-for-manual-approval system needs to much admin time
20:16:15<!Isilkor> 20:13 <!Guenther> Yet-another-user-database is not really what we want. <- in a similar vein, isn't it possible to have the blog and wiki and bugtracker and so on use the forum user DB?
20:16:35<!Guenther> That would require modding of the software, i.e. work
20:17:28< Randrian__> so, i have to go now. good bye
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20:17:34<!Guenther> (Hm, does matthes still check the online doc comments? I lost my password, and didn't bother to have it reset...)
20:18:16< B_E> I committed a few entries maybe half a year ago, nothin happened till now @Guenther
20:20:00<!Guenther> Well, I think I'll change the documentation generation tool to generate static html and look into a link which creates a new mantis bug with the doc page as a title or something
20:20:16<!Guenther> next topic? :-)
20:20:22<!PeterW> And a link in the documentation? ;)
20:20:29<!Newton> btw topic
20:20:30<!Sven2> We don't have Wiki markup for bugtracker links, do we?
20:21:13<!PeterW> Would be great if bugs tagged "AddMenuItem" would get linked automatically, for example.
20:21:30<!Newton> I am going to be afk now, so I'd say Sven just posts the wiki link and we put into that text what we will do /need to do this week
20:21:31<!Guenther> PeterW: Every page could have a link "create bug about this page", which would when you have the bugtracker cookie
20:21:43<!Newton> I am half-here for a 10-20 min still
20:22:39<!Sven2> http://wiki.openclonk.org/w/Roadmap
20:22:48<!Sven2> Some of the stuff may be out of date?
20:23:05<!Guenther> Inlining bugs into the doc page is too much work, I think.
20:24:36<!PeterW> Well, it's the minimal solution that still maintains the implicit documentation going on with bugtracker entries...
20:25:00<!Sven2> Guenther: But into the wiki...?
20:25:57<!Guenther> Sven2: er, what? Wiki markup for bug numbers is a relatively simple text translation step, displaying bugs in a page requires database work
20:26:48<!Sven2> I think we could do bugtracker links with a template
20:26:54<!Sven2> Like {{{# number}}}
20:27:06<!Sven2> Except # is not a valid wiki page name ;)
20:27:35<!Guenther> "bug 1234" is better, imho
20:28:07<!Sven2> Hm, do template parameters work that way anyway?
20:28:48<!Guenther> I have no idea.
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20:31:15<!Sven2> OK, fixed the links
20:31:22<!Sven2> It's {{Bug|66}} now
20:32:21<!Sven2> It would be very helpful if every developer could add his current activity to the roadmap (If it's part of our goal)
20:32:37<!Sven2> Zapper is doing weapons?
20:36:53<!Guenther> I should do proplist savegame support at some point. I'll probably just punt on the "what about changing game data" question and not run the Definition() functions on savegame restore.
20:39:18<!Sven2> Is it possible to category bugs somehow?
20:39:21< ck_> mesh animations and attachments also still need savegame support :|
20:39:39<!Sven2> Would be more appropriate to have crucial bugs-to-be-fixed in some category
20:41:45<!Guenther> ck_: That's just some StdCompiler exercise, though, isn't it?
20:42:03< ck_> Guenther: I hope so :)
20:42:21<!Newton> Sven: sure
20:42:33<!Newton> ah, that you mean
20:42:37<!Newton> hm, priority
20:42:44<!Newton> you can also use tags
20:42:52<!Guenther> I mean, they are "trivially" serializable, nothing with cross-object pointers and stuff
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20:44:24< ck_> well, an object's mesh instance can be attached to another mesh, that might get a bit tricky
20:45:02< ck_> But otherwies should be trivial
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20:45:51<!Guenther> Okay, but that's just an object pointer, for which the serialisation is already solved
20:47:34< ck_> OK
20:47:53<!Guenther> I need to serialize definitions pointers, which are indistinguishable from object pointers now, but point to stuff which also needs to be loaded at the start of the game
20:48:25<!Guenther> So if definitions use the same object number "namespace", one has guaranteed collisions
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20:50:02<!Guenther> That has basically three solutions: Load the properties of definitions for savegames from the savegame, from the definition, or somehow merge them
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20:51:36<!Guenther> Sven2: Do we really still need magic action names for the frame decorations? Can't we use a "FrameDecoFoo" property with the needed data?
20:57:21< JC-weg> Why is it de-facto-standard to name language strings TxtFooBar?
20:57:33< JC-weg> That Txt is actually redundant.
20:58:29<!Guenther> Because somebody thought it was a good idea while writing the ScriptDE/ScriptUS converter? I don't know.
20:58:41<+occ> Sven * 7c00f72a8a43 src/gui/C4StartupPlrSelDlg.cpp: fix player property dialog (#129)
20:59:00<!Sven2> Guenther: Right now, actions are the only think to encode graphics?
21:00:27<!Sven2> I just didn't want to reinvent the wheel here
21:00:53<!Guenther> The contents can very well be compatible with actions
21:01:39<!Guenther> So instead of actions = { ... FrameDecoFoo = { ... } }; you'd have actions = { ... }; FrameDecoFoo = { ... };
21:02:09<!Sven2> Well, it's not a big deal. If you feel like documenting it, you could go ahead and change it</pre>

IRCMeeting/20100208 - Revision history

Clonk-Karl: Today's meeting log+summary