• Newton: Fixed various HUD bugs, set up Send a message to Newton to get an account.
  • ck: Committed new animation system
    • Addresses various mesh-related bugs in the bugtracker thisweek
  • Isilkor: Committed long C4ID patch
  • Mimmo_O: Committed Boomshire
    • Will finalize it this week
  • Randrian: Did work on various Clonk animations and continues to do so this week
  • Maikel: Comitted race goal and checkpoints
  • Sven2: Started to work on Tutorial. Will continue this week.
    • Difficult to explain current inventory system in tutorial, followup discussion in the forums
  • loriel: Made many warnings disappear
    • Will work on random bugtracker bugs this week
  • Masterserver for OC?
    • Possibilities include: Run CR league scripts on, allow OC to use the masterserver (need to check with matthes), write a new "open" masterserver
    • No general agreement. Would be good to have a working solution in the near future, even if it is only temporary.

Full Log

[19:10] <!Newton> ok, meeting start!@19:10
[19:10] <!Zapper> gogo RAGE PeterW!
[19:10] <!Newton> who moderates?
[19:10] <!Mimmo_O> i could.
[19:10] <!Mimmo_O> let me just fetch some paper and pencils
[19:11] * Matthi leaves to fetch some popcorn.
[19:11] <!Zapper> *strg+r notepad*
[19:11] <!Mimmo_O> its win+r
[19:11] <!Mimmo_O> i prefer handwriting
[19:11] <!Mimmo_O> okay
[19:12] <!PeterW> *Cmd-Leer TextEdit* ;)
[19:12] <!Mimmo_O> who is not here today except for maikel?
[19:12] <!Zapper> Sven will come later
[19:12] * Randrian ( has joined #openclonk-dev
[19:12] * ChanServ sets mode: +ao Randrian Randrian
[19:12] <!PeterW> Maikel was here some minutes ago?
[19:12] <!Zapper> And RIngwaul is not here, too
[19:12] <!Zapper> Randrian is here, tho
[19:12] <!ck> Guenther does not seem to be present
[19:12] <!Zapper> Randrian, the shield ingame model doesnt work? :<
[19:12] <!Mimmo_O> Zapper: later
[19:13] <!Mimmo_O> lets go to the first agenda point
[19:13] <!Mimmo_O> what we have done from last meeting til now
[19:13] <!Mimmo_O> refering to we start with Newton
[19:13] <!Newton> ah, that one you meant@teilnehmerliste
[19:13] <!Mimmo_O> yup
[19:14] <!Newton> well, I wanted to do some hud fixes, set up a blog and start with the gamepad controls
[19:15] <!Newton> I didnt have time for the gamepad controls, I just updated the interface for using items a little so that it will be less of a problem to implement gamepad controls
[19:15] <!Newton> fixed some hud-bugs
[19:15] <!Newton> and set up a blog
[19:15] <!Newton> its here:
[19:15] <!ck> Is it fully set up already?
[19:15] <!Zapper> nice
[19:15] <!Mimmo_O> nice, yes
[19:15] <!ck> I waited for a link to appear on 
[19:15] <!Newton> but as you can see, the style is not adjusted to the rest of the page
[19:15] <!Zapper> Do we have to create new accounts?
[19:15] <!Mimmo_O> ringwaul created a logo for that already
[19:16] <!Newton> I want to create a template so that the same div classes are used then for the wiki template. I imagine its less work to do adjustments later
[19:16] <!Newton> because I can basically use the CSS from the wiki
[19:17] <!Newton> there are no accounts yet. But I can create them, no problem.
[19:17] <!Zapper> mh, where to create an account there?
[19:17] <!Zapper> ah, ok
[19:17] <!Mimmo_O> i think the developers should get accounts then?
[19:17] <!Zapper> later!
[19:17] <!Newton> yes
[19:18] <!Mimmo_O> k
[19:18] <!Mimmo_O> anything else, Newton
[19:18] <!Mimmo_O> ?
[19:18] <!Newton> lets see
[19:18] <!Newton> well here is the interface for reference:
[19:19] <!Newton> otherwise, thats it. I just want to encourage you to already write something. Looks odd when I finally make the blog-link available and there is no content at all
[19:19] <!Mimmo_O> anyone wants to take the task to write the inital post?
[19:20] <!Zapper> I could
[19:20] <!Mimmo_O> k
[19:20] <!Zapper> I dont promise anything tho :)
[19:20] <!ck> So will we use separate logins after all?
[19:20] <!Mimmo_O> yes, sure :p
[19:20] <!Mimmo_O> (@ Zapper)
[19:21] <!Zapper> lets try to hurry a bit through the what-have-u-done phase? :)
[19:21] <!Mimmo_O> i planned a maximum of 10 minutes per person
[19:21] <!Newton> ck: yes
[19:21] <!Mimmo_O> Newton has 2 minutes left
[19:21] <!Newton> I already said, thats it ^^
[19:21] <!Mimmo_O> kk
[19:21] <!Mimmo_O> next one was ck
[19:22] <!ck> I basically implemented the new animation system for mesh animations
[19:22] <!Sven2> re
[19:22] <!ck> And even (partly) documented it!!
[19:22] <!Mimmo_O> wb
[19:22] <!Mimmo_O> k, ck, any questions to that?
[19:22] <!ck> I'm wondering a bit where the new display bugs come from. Guess the model changed, not the code. Will have a look at that next.
[19:23] <!ck> Well, Feedback is always nice, so feel free to tell me if there is anything wrong with it
[19:23] <!Randrian> the model changed, but the bugs are there already some time ago, but always only visible when zoomed in a lot
[19:24] <!ck> yeah, I noticed that as well
[19:24] <!Randrian> in the actual jump animation you can see it quite clearly
[19:24] <!Newton> jup
[19:24] <!ck> right
[19:24] <!Randrian> (and I don't have to say that it doesn't show up in blender)
[19:25] <!ck> yeah. Will try to get on that and some of the other bugs in the bugtracker assigned to me this week.
[19:25] <!Newton> wow, a lot of docs. Will read that later
[19:25] <!Newton> openclonk\docs\sdk\definition\animations.xml
[19:25] <!Isilkor> In a related issue, I don't like this auto-assignment of bugs by category
[19:26] <!ck> So if there are no more questions I'm done :)
[19:26] <!Newton> I have no problem in turning it off
[19:26] <!Sven2> Mh
[19:26] <!Sven2> Question!
[19:26] <!Isilkor> If this stays, you don't see whether somebody is actually working on a bug, or if it was just auto-assigned to him
[19:26] <!Mimmo_O> Wuestion approved.
[19:26] <!Mimmo_O> *q
[19:27] <!Sven2> Form the engine point of view, how will models be implemented in the hundreds of contexts where C4Facets are used currently?
[19:27] <!Newton> Isilkor: turned it off
[19:27] <!Sven2> I mean, we have object graphics, portraits, menu symbols, GUI stuff, etc.
[19:28] <!ck> I guess a function to render a mesh onto a facet would be in order
[19:28] <!Sven2> I'd rather implement it as a C4Facet replacement
[19:28] <!Sven2> So you got something like C4Graphics, which can be either a 2D graphic (C4Facet) or a model
[19:29] <!Sven2> Alternatively, 2D facets could be implemented by converting them into models
[19:29] <!ck> hm, ok... guess I'll have to think a bit more about that. They won't share too much operations than "draw on something else", right?
[19:30] <!Sven2> Yes, I'd think so
[19:30] <!Sven2> But there are many of these operations. The interface has grown lots of hairs.
[19:30] <!Sven2> Including unused parameters like "draw with transparency"
[19:31] <!ck> ok so this would be a good opportunity to also clean that up somewhat
[19:31] <!Mimmo_O> we have one minute left for ck
[19:31] <!Mimmo_O> so is there anything left you need to discuss now?
[19:31] <loriel> Can I hijack his minute?
[19:32] <!Mimmo_O> otherwise we proceed with Zapper
[19:32] <loriel> Oh, well.
[19:32] <!ck> doesn't seem so
[19:32] <!Zapper> I started with the melee weapon system yesterday
[19:32] <!ck> loriel: maybe you can get your own 10 minute slot at the end ;)
[19:32] <!Zapper> I kinda ~works. Just have to tweak some stuff now
[19:32] <!Newton> can you give some details on that?
[19:33] <!Zapper> (that would be the topic of the blog, too)
[19:33] <!Zapper> sure
[19:33] <!Zapper> While I could as well put that in the blog!
[19:33] <!Zapper> basically: you have three different strikes
[19:33] <!Mimmo_O> stab, slice and horizontal?
[19:33] <!Zapper> you trigger them just by clicking and they depend on the direction in which you are moving
[19:33] <!Zapper> upward, downward and horizontal
[19:34] <!PeterW> We are talking about something like a sword right now?
[19:34] <!Zapper> I still have to add a system to aim with the fully drawn weapon (after the strike) for the shield
[19:34] <!Zapper> yes
[19:34] <!Mimmo_O> so this weaponsystem wont include special strikes?
[19:34] <!Zapper> sword and shield currently
[19:34] <!Zapper> well, I have nothing against special strikes yet
[19:34] <!Zapper> But I would as well trigger them by the movement
[19:34] <!PeterW> What exactly would be the difference between the three types of strikes?
[19:35] <!Mimmo_O> it could just end like caedes, two clonks stuck next to each other just hitting each other
[19:35] <!Zapper> and not "draw a tree with your mouse do to a roundhouse kick!"
[19:35] <!Mimmo_O> *g*
[19:35] <!Zapper> PeterW, weapons have two "parameters" i called them bash and sharpness for now
[19:35] <!Newton> hm.
[19:35] <!Zapper> both are influenced a bit by the velocity of the Clonk
[19:36] <!Newton> I'd like to discuss this on a later agenda point
[19:36] <!Zapper> mh, k
[19:36] <loriel> But you need piercing too to have something to make skeletons immune to!
[19:36] <!Zapper> yes, I thought about introducing damage types, too
[19:36] <B_E> Like the Epic one?
[19:37] <!Zapper> dunno
[19:37] <!Mimmo_O> dont make too many of them, or we end up in having special items for defending each attack
[19:37] <!Zapper> like in Hazard or Caedes
[19:37] <!Zapper> Never played Epic
[19:37] <!PeterW> Well, we had spears in Knights, didn't we?
[19:37] <!Zapper> Mimmo_O, yes, just a few
[19:37] <!Mimmo_O> we do
[19:37] <!PeterW> Hm, though it's obviously a good question whether you'd want to only be able to throw them now.
[19:37] <!Mimmo_O> in addition to this, we could also add non-physical damage like damage from fire or acid, or even magical damage
[19:38] <!Newton> Javelin <-> Spear
[19:38] <!Zapper> PeterW, well
[19:38] <!Zapper> I still think that throwing should ALWAYS be on strg+mouse
[19:38] <!Sven2> *ctrl
[19:38] <!Zapper> not on mouse-when-obejcts-doesnt-return-true
[19:38] <!Zapper> whatever
[19:38] <!Zapper> to have the same behavior on all objects
[19:39] <!Sven2> Yes, I've thrown my shovel a few times. Don't know how it happened
[19:39] -Newton- ich würd das sogr gerne grundlegender diskutieren, aber das passt jetzt nicht in die 10min. Können wir in einem späteren TOP noch darüber sprechen?
[19:39] -> -Newton- sicher
[19:39] <!PeterW> Or a long click or something
[19:39] <!Zapper> long click? :/
[19:39] <!Mimmo_O> okay, we will move the discussion about throwing to the end please
[19:39] <!Zapper> that doesnt work
[19:39] <!Zapper> you hold the button for the bow for example
[19:39] <!PeterW> Yeah, you know - the longer, the more power
[19:39] <!Mimmo_O> okay, we will move the discussion about throwing to the end please
[19:39] <!Zapper> and you would for example use the spear as a melee weapon with [mouse] but you could still throw it like any other object
[19:39] <!Mimmo_O> any else questions to the weapon system working?
[19:39] <!Zapper> k, next one then
[19:40] <!PeterW> With some extra code to makee the animation pretty, I guess.
[19:40] <!Mimmo_O> next one would be maikel and ringwaul, who are both not here
[19:40] <!Mimmo_O> maikel scripted the race-goal
[19:40] <!Mimmo_O> ringwaul made the logo and the shield
[19:40] <!Mimmo_O> did i forgot anything?
[19:41] <!Zapper> the shoeld doesnt work ingame :<
[19:41] <!Zapper> the model
[19:41] <!Zapper> but whatever
[19:41] <!Randrian> why? it did
[19:41] <!Zapper> oh
[19:41] <!Sven2> I don't like the race goal checkpoints, but I guess they're placeholders?
[19:41] <!Zapper> I guess Ill need a freshly compiled engine then
[19:41] <!Mimmo_O> you mean the visual, sven?
[19:41] <!Zapper> I think so @placeholders
[19:42] <!Sven2> Yes. And the non-existant sounds
[19:42] <!Mimmo_O> maikel mentioned once, he will make out of particles maybe
[19:42] <!Mimmo_O> hm
[19:42] <!Mimmo_O> what sound would you vorschlagen?
[19:42] <!Mimmo_O> *suggest
[19:42] <!Sven2> Depends on the graphics :P
[19:43] <!Mimmo_O> okay, thats another story, then
[19:43] <!PeterW> .oO( Mario-style? )
[19:43] <!Mimmo_O> we proceed with peter
[19:43] <!PeterW> Uh
[19:43] <!PeterW> Well, I'm not doing much apart from participating in the forum discussions :)
[19:43] <!Mimmo_O> okay, thats also a job to do!
[19:44] <!Mimmo_O> if theres nothing, i will be next
[19:44] <!PeterW> I'd like discussing some of the points from the thread, if that's what I'm supposed to do
[19:44] <!PeterW> But if it's about what I have done, I think I have to pass :)
[19:44] <!Mimmo_O> any objections?
[19:44] <!Mimmo_O> well, we can give you your 10 minutes if you want
[19:45] <!Isilkor> I move we stop being this stiff and formal
[19:45] <!Isilkor> This is not a court of law
[19:45] <loriel> I move to second Isilkor's motion
[19:45] <!Mimmo_O> Isilkor: i just want the points to be done
[19:45] <!Mimmo_O> we had a 3+hours meeting last week
[19:45] <!Sven2> There should be a formal discussion on the required degree of formality
[19:45] <!PeterW> Well, I don't know what the concept is, actually
[19:46] <!PeterW> Everybody has his/her say, then free discussion?
[19:46] <!Randrian> well, in the forum there was the agenda
[19:46] <!Randrian> first everyone explains what he has done
[19:46] <!Mimmo_O> first we have: what have we done
[19:46] <!Mimmo_O> then we see whats left to discuss
[19:47] <!Mimmo_O> but the first point is for sure telling whats done
[19:47] <!Mimmo_O> and if there is some topic that requires a long time to discuss
[19:47] <!Mimmo_O> then we will move it to the end, so that we first know what is done, actually
[19:47] <!Newton> the agenda of the forum is from last time
[19:47] <!PeterW> Good, let's proceed with that. I pass. And third (?) the movement to not be so formal about those 10 minutes. It's distracting.
[19:47] <!Isilkor> Okay, but if you allot 10 minutes to everybody to tell about his deeds, we're here at least 2hrs as well
[19:47] <!Isilkor> So let some people have 5, others 10,
[19:47] <!Isilkor> and if somebody needs, maybe even 12
[19:47] <!Mimmo_O> some people dont even need to talk
[19:48] <!PeterW> Who's next?
[19:48] <!Mimmo_O> i just want the not-so-mportant part to be done
[19:48] <!Mimmo_O> would be me
[19:48] * !Randrian ( Quit (Ping timeout�)
[19:48] <!Mimmo_O> well, i have made the jar of winds and a parcour, boomshire
[19:49] <!Mimmo_O> both more a excercise for me
[19:49] <Asmageddon> I would not like to disturb, but boomshire is IMHO a bit too hard
[19:49] <!Sven2> I wouldn't think so
[19:49] <!Mimmo_O> its also not finished yet and for two people
[19:49] <!Sven2> As a two player course, it's OK to be a bit more advanced
[19:50] <!Mimmo_O> i think its more challenging if you have to think what you should do
[19:50] <Ape> Does it have checkpoints already?
[19:50] <Asmageddon> So that is the point, that it is non-completable with one player?
[19:50] <!Mimmo_O> yes
[19:50] <!Mimmo_O> and yes to Asmageddon
[19:50] <Asmageddon> ...ok, I get it
[19:50] <!Mimmo_O> its actual for two players, not more and not less
[19:50] <Asmageddon> That is why I couldn't make it, ok, I'm quiet now
[19:51] <!Sven2> Concerning the Jar:
[19:51] <Asmageddon> Then set minimum and maximum player limit
[19:51] <!Sven2> I think left down should fill the Jar of Winds regardless of where you click it
[19:51] <Asmageddon> or at least write about it in description of this scenario
[19:51] <!Mimmo_O> i will
[19:51] <!Mimmo_O> Sven2: my idea was to make it loading slower when youre in a close cave
[19:52] <!Sven2> Yes. Recharge speed may depend on your surroundings, but the refill direction really shouldn't matter
[19:52] <!Sven2> It's kind of fake difficulty
[19:52] <!Mimmo_O> hm
[19:52] <!Mimmo_O> okay, i will change this and see how it works
[19:52] <!Mimmo_O> randrian is not here, hm
[19:52] <Ape> Does it still have the problem that you can't hold movement buttons when using jar, if you want to fly a long distance? Ie. moving to the right direction actually slows you from getting there with jar
[19:53] <!Mimmo_O> i think he need a model to create and animation for this
[19:53] <!Sven2> That's fixed
[19:53] <!Mimmo_O> fixed, thanks to Newton
[19:53] <Ape> Nice
[19:53] <!Mimmo_O> okay, anything else to add?
[19:53] <!Mimmo_O> otherwise, Isilkor has the word
[19:54] <!Isilkor> I have implemented IDs that are longer than 4 chars, the details of which were discussed in the last meeting, as far as I recall
[19:54] <!Mimmo_O> whats the main point of having them able to be longer than four chars?
[19:55] <Asmageddon> Sorry for disturbing, but does this mean I can already use for example 5 char ID?
[19:55] <!Newton> c'mon, not again the discussion@Mimmo
[19:55] <!Zapper> Do we have any conventions?
[19:55] <Ape> Do we have or are we going to have namespaces or prefixes?
[19:55] <!Zapper> like Core::bla?
[19:55] <!Mimmo_O> i wasnt (mentally) present at this discussion
[19:55] <loriel> Zapper: I think IDs do not include ':'
[19:55] <!Zapper> :<
[19:55] <!Zapper> _ then
[19:55] <loriel> Advantages: More descriptive names with possible underscore-prefixed namespaces, less need to be careful about not stepped on someone else's IDs
[19:55] <!Mimmo_O> well, then we skip my quesion
[19:55] * Randrian ( has joined #openclonk-dev
[19:55] * ChanServ sets mode: +ao Randrian Randrian
[19:55] <!Isilkor> Zapper: we don't have namespaces, but you can use _
[19:56] <loriel> SHVL -> Core_Shovel
[19:56] <!Isilkor> We might have namespaces later, :: was freed up
[19:56] <!Mimmo_O> ah okay
[19:56] <!Mimmo_O> reminds me of java
[19:56] <!Zapper> So we are going to use Core_ now?
[19:56] <loriel> Yes.
[19:56] <!Zapper> and with capital C?
[19:56] <loriel> Yes!
[19:56] <!Sven2> Sounds a bit verbose in scripting
[19:57] <!Zapper> i'd rather write all IDs lowercase
[19:57] <!Mimmo_O> weill we then use Knights_CastlePart1 for knight-objects?
[19:57] <!Zapper> core_library_weaponsystem
[19:57] <!Zapper> i'm so gonna call it that way now
[19:57] <Ape> Capitalized looks better to me
[19:57] <loriel> Well, I would rather use ALL_CAPS_LIKE_FOR_C_MACROS for constants, but, well
[19:57] <!Mimmo_O> i prefer Zappers way
[19:57] <!Sven2> Yes, lower case names are already used for variables
[19:57] <!Zapper> mh
[19:58] <!Zapper> Every word capitalized then?
[19:58] <!Mimmo_O> who uses variables like "core_library_weaponsystem"
[19:58] <!Sven2> Generally, IDs fulfill the role of classes, which are written in capital letters in almost every languag eI know
[19:58] <!Zapper> I don't want to remember where I have to put the capital letter
[19:58] <!Zapper> my classes always have a lowercase prefix :<
[19:58] <!Mimmo_O> nub!
[19:58] <!Sven2> I'd rather lower-case function names to distinguish them from IDs
[19:59] <!Zapper> %(
[19:59] <!Mimmo_O> ugh
[19:59] <!Zapper> I'd leave the upper case
[19:59] <!Zapper> and have the _ divide IDs
[19:59] <loriel> Can we abort this discussion and have it on the forum and then vote on it during the next meeting?
[19:59] <!Zapper> and not use the _ in function names
[19:59] <!Zapper> ok
[19:59] <!Zapper> ill just go and call my thingy Core_Library_Weaponsystem now!
[20:00] <!Mimmo_O> do that
[20:00] <!Zapper> mh
[20:00] <loriel> You can always change later once you have convinced us all :)
[20:00] <!Zapper> Meleeweaponsystem actually!
[20:00] <!PeterW> Hm, just wondering: Are we planning to have something like "use Knights"?
[20:00] <!Sven2> I'd just call it Weaponsystem
[20:00] <!Mimmo_O> Meleeweaponssystembyzapper
[20:00] <!Mimmo_O> Meleeweaponssystembyzapperv2.68
[20:00] <!Zapper> ok, Sven2
[20:00] <!Zapper> it's only melee tho
[20:00] <!Mimmo_O> okay, anything else to add?
[20:00] <!Newton> Core_Library_Meleeweaponssystem
[20:00] <!PeterW> After which "Knight" automatically resolves to "Knights_Knight" where it's unambiguous
[20:01] <!Sven2> PeterW: Yes, I think that would be cool
[20:01] <!Mimmo_O> hm
[20:02] <!Sven2> Also, I wouldn't nest stuff too deeply. That's just more stuff to remember and write
[20:02] <!Mimmo_O> maybe we just use another prefix for knights-items
[20:02] <!Mimmo_O> ok
[20:02] <!Mimmo_O> later to that, if needed
[20:02] <!Mimmo_O> randrian?
[20:02] <!Randrian> yes
[20:02] <Asmageddon> Hey, can I already use IDs longer than 4 chars?
[20:03] <!Isilkor> Yes
[20:03] <Asmageddon> Ok
[20:03] <!Randrian> I worked on the clonk's animations.
[20:03] <!Randrian> I fixed some things about the rig, to have better control over the arms (and ellbows)
[20:03] <!Randrian> and added some animations, expecially some with attached meshes.
[20:04] <!Randrian> Like the Strike Animations for the Sword and the Anim animation for the bow
[20:04] <!Randrian> and also the dig animation.
[20:04] <!Mimmo_O> yes, they look nice
[20:04] <!Sven2> Will we be able to attach carried objects to the arms?
[20:04] <!Randrian> yes I think that will be possible
[20:04] <!Randrian> the bow now is already attached to the hand, when selected.
[20:05] <!Randrian> as the shield
[20:05] <!Randrian> the sword now is worn on the back, when not drawn.
[20:05] <!Sven2> That's nice
[20:05] <!Zapper> (I need a freshly compiled engine!)
[20:05] <!Sven2> I thought the three inventory slots could represent each hand plus the back of the Clonk
[20:05] <!Randrian> but I'll make a system with that will control these attachments
[20:05] <!Zapper> Randrian, I find the sword thingy a bit weird. What if you have selected a sword AND an axe?
[20:05] <loriel> Then you are metal as fuck
[20:05] <!Mimmo_O> .oO(Dual wield!)
[20:06] <!Randrian> well the system should handle this
[20:06] <!Zapper> currently the weapon system "controls" the attachment of weapons to the hand
[20:06] <!Newton> hardly possible sven. Or can you imagine that the clonk carries a bow in each hand?
[20:06] <!Randrian> perhaps only show the sword when selected
[20:06] <!Zapper> I'd need the interface to your system then
[20:06] <!Sven2> Well, then a bow should need both hands?
[20:06] <!Zapper> nah, both hands suck
[20:06] <!Zapper> then you'd only be able to carry two items again
[20:06] <!Mimmo_O> NeedBothHands() { return true; }
[20:06] <loriel> In WoW, I can wield two two-handed axes and a bow at the same time. I exect you to match this.
[20:06] <!Newton> but then the second bow couldnt be displayed on the conk@sven
[20:06] <!Sven2> I thought about how to explain the "two mouse button" system in the tutorial. And the easiest explanation I came up with was that it represents "left and right hand"
[20:07] <!Randrian> well, I haven't started to implement it, so there is no interface yet zapper
[20:07] <!Zapper> yepp, just saying
[20:07] <!Sven2> I think we should show at least the primary (left button) selection
[20:08] <loriel> If we keep going along this direction, clonks will be dropping their weapons and shovels while climbing...
[20:08] <!Newton> ?
[20:08] <!Randrian> no, they put them on the back or something like that
[20:08] <!Randrian> or hide them
[20:08] <!Randrian> in CX this system also works
[20:08] <!Zapper> in cx you can only carry one item, though
[20:09] <!Randrian> yes well, but in some (earlier?) versions you could carry more and only on was displayed.
[20:09] <!Newton> next? We started 1h ago and still not done with status updates
[20:09] <!Zapper> you had a "first" slot there
[20:09] <!Zapper> k
[20:09] <!Randrian> well lefthand = first slot
[20:09] <!Newton> oh, we are through, aren't we?
[20:10] <!Randrian> yes I think so
[20:10] <!Sven2> Almost. I started the tutorial scenario, but got stuck when I realized dialog messages are broken
[20:10] <!Mimmo_O> yes, sven
[20:10] <!Mimmo_O> just wanted to call you
[20:10] <!Sven2> And when I couldn't explain the two-hand-system in an easy way
[20:10] <!Newton> oh, well. loriel (and asmageddon) are missing
[20:10] <Asmageddon> I'm not missing
[20:10] <Asmageddon> And I guess I'm not usefull, so I do not get why you even mention me
[20:11] <!Sven2> We could add a callout to "people not on list" to the formal procedure to be used on IRC dev meetings :P
[20:11] -> -Newton- nun geht das wieder los...
[20:11] <loriel> I filed and posted a huge patch in two parts and it would be neat if everybody could check whether it touches any of their code in a wrong way or whether it breaks anything, so that it might be comitted before it causes even more conflicts, if no one has any objections.
[20:12] <!Sven2> So, basically, you silenced warnings?
[20:12] <loriel> Yes
[20:13] <loriel> A lot of it is really minor stuff like reordering initialisation lists and adding parentheses/braces at gcc's whims
[20:14] <loriel> I changed a bunch of signed/unsigneds around to avoid comparision between stuff of differing signedness
[20:14] <!Sven2> You removed the commas at the end of enum declarations?
[20:15] <loriel> They appear to be disallowed by C++
[20:15] <!Sven2> Some people consider them good style because it allows easier reorganization. I never heard they were disallowed
[20:16] <!Isilkor> Well, judging from the BNF in the standard, they aren't actually allowed
[20:16] <loriel> I also removed semicolons after } at the end of function definitions and namespaces
[20:16] <loriel> which do not seem to be allowed either
[20:17] <!Sven2> Well, if it shuts down warnings, so be it then
[20:17] <!PeterW> I also considered commas in enums good style, but whatever.
[20:18] <!Zapper> brb
[20:18] * !Zapper ( Quit (Quit: woo�)
[20:18] <loriel> I assume you will have more objections that I changed "if (foo = bar)" to "if ((foo = bar))", which is not required at all but suggested by gcc with even only -Wall
[20:18] <!Sven2> Yes, I can see the reason
[20:19] <loriel> Also if() if() a else b -> if() { if() a else b }
[20:19] <!PeterW> That first one seems pretty sensible, yes.
[20:19] <loriel> in some cases the desired behaviour in the code was rather nonobvious
[20:19] <!PeterW> It's a bit of a bad habit in Clonk code to do it so often
[20:20] <!PeterW> Well, that's often a matter of correct indention :)
[20:20] <!Isilkor> which is nonobvious as well, since there is code part tabs part spaces
[20:20] <!Newton> err by the way. Since we seem to be done with the status updates, I see no problem in continuing this discussion about the patch right here as our "second agenda point"
[20:20] <!Sven2> More brackets are OK for me
[20:20] <+occ> armin * 6a879327cfb6 src/game/object/C4Id.h: Add more comparison operators to C4Id, fixing the build
[20:20] <+occ> armin * f6000c1b8a0d src/platform/StdFile.cpp: Fix the build on Linux
[20:20] <loriel> Okay, cool.
[20:20] <!PeterW> GCC is warning about that already with -Wall? Semms pretty, well, pedantic to me.
[20:20] <!Newton> just to make a note about the process of the meeting
[20:20] <!Mimmo_O> sure
[20:21] <!Sven2> I don't think you will get MSVC9 coders to remember to add those brackets though
[20:21] * Zapper_ ( has joined #openclonk-dev
[20:21] <!Sven2> (if new code is written)
[20:21] <!Mimmo_O> (so we go to "Discussion" now, and after that, we may move on to "Goald"
[20:21] <loriel> Sven2: I am not worried about new code right now, I just hope that it will be possible to get this patch comitted before it gets more out of date.
[20:21] <!Mimmo_O> i dont understand anything, so i will go take a shower, if its okay?)
[20:22] <loriel> I would not mind occasionally adding brackets :)
[20:22] <!Mimmo_O> [brb]
[20:22] <loriel> PeterW: It is with -Wall already, presumably because it is a common-enough beginners error and beginners are told to use -Wall but not -pedantic
[20:22] <!Sven2> Yes, maintaining a no-warnings-state is definitely desirable
[20:22] <!PeterW> Well, the point is that I guess we won't make it a code guideline to code this way?
[20:23] <!Newton> .oO("Eventually, you will arrive at this screen and probably wonder who taught those coders the kind of shoddy practices that result in more then 600 warnings. ")
[20:23] <loriel> PeterW: I just hope there will not be a code guideline *against* doing it this way :)
[20:23] <!PeterW> Obviously - but on the other hand we can hand-pick which warnings we deem neccessary
[20:23] <!PeterW> @ Sven2
[20:23] <!Isilkor> Newton: Hey, those aren't there anymore
[20:23] <loriel> I do not want to cramp anyone's style, I just hoped for approval for my obsession with cleaning up code
[20:24] <!PeterW> (And deactivate all others)
[20:24] <Asmageddon> Sorry for disturbing, but is it really THAT important....?
[20:24] <!Isilkor> (because I disabled "conversion from float to int" warnings)
[20:24] <!Sven2> Both bracket warnings could help us find bugs, so I don't think they should be disabled
[20:24] <loriel> Asmageddon: I spend quite a few hours on the patch, I would like to get it waved through before it gets more out of date and harder to apply
[20:24] <!Newton> I know
[20:24] * Nachtfalter (nachtfalt@217.72.213.euirc-961f5eff) has joined #openclonk-dev
[20:25] <!Newton> Dunno, who takes care of that?@committing loriels patch
[20:25] <loriel> They can be disabled by -Wno-parentheses I believe
[20:25] <!ck> I can do
[20:25] <!Newton> ok, cool
[20:25] <!ck> Would be good if one of the MSVCers can confirm it to work though
[20:25] <loriel> I hoped I would find at least one or two volunteers to compile and run it to see if I broke anything that did not trip up my particular configuration
[20:25] <!Newton> ah
[20:25] <!Sven2> OK
[20:25] <loriel> and someone should check whether my changes to ie. C4FileMonitor::Execute make sense
[20:26] <!Newton> seems to me we have our volunteers ;D
[20:26] <!Isilkor> ck: the first part of the patch compiled
[20:26] <!Isilkor> it doesn't cleanly apply anymore, unfortunately
[20:26] <!Isilkor> but it's not too broken atm
[20:26] <loriel> Oh, something else I did that might be questionable was to satisfy -Woverloaded-virtual: When a subclass was hiding a virtual method of the base class, I brought it back into the subclass' scoe.
[20:26] <!PeterW> <- Mac currently, so nobody look at me. OpenClonk doesn't even properly build here.
[20:26] <loriel> It seems sound "OO" practice to not narrow the interface of a class in its subclass
[20:27] <!Isilkor> PeterW: Are you volunteering to fix that? ;)
[20:27] <!Sven2> So, ck will commit it and then we check?
[20:27] <!ck> OK
[20:27] <!PeterW> Well, to make it work all the way to apple-compatible application packages, it's quite a bit of work.
[20:27] <loriel> Thank you :)
[20:28] <!Sven2> Hm. Looks like TortoiseHG doesn't have an "Apply patch"-option?
[20:29] <!Newton> thats right
[20:29] <loriel> (Also thanks to Isilkor for helping me get my changes into a patch format in the first place)
[20:29] <Asmageddon> Ok, I have to go, bye then.
[20:29] <loriel> Bye, Asmageddon 
[20:29] * Asmageddon ( Quit (Quit: ajax IRC Client�)
[20:30] <!Newton> hmm
[20:30] <!PeterW> By the way: On what point of the agenda are we currently? :)
[20:31] <!Newton> anyway, do we have something else to discuss? Or asked another way: does someone want to discuss something?
[20:31] <!ck> On the "Discuss loriel's patch" point :P
[20:31] <!Isilkor> 5, miscellaneous ;P
[20:31] <!Newton> Peter: see ck ;-)
[20:31] <loriel> The point where I splatter the bikeshed that is the code with tiny splotches of colour that no one will agree on in many nonobvious places
[20:31] <!PeterW> It just occured to me that we might want to keep engine core discussion and gameplay discussion a bit apart from each other, as engine talk might be pretty boring to those working on the object stuff.
[20:31] <!Isilkor> I like polka-dot patterns
[20:32] <!Newton> but how to do that, Peter? go into another channel? Split up the meeting
[20:32] <!Newton> +?
[20:32] <!Sven2> The first few pages of your patch file looked OK for me, even as a Windows coder
[20:32] <!Sven2> (who likes it GRAY. Preferrably ASH-GRAY).
[20:33] <loriel> I introduced a few TODO comments where I initialised variables with 0 or NULL just to get the compiler to shut up about uninitialised warnings but where I was not "entirely" certain that it was in fact be initialised before use
[20:33] <!PeterW> Well, have gameplay discussion first or something?
[20:33] <loriel> and where I added default: break;-like things where the compiler was concerned that a switch did not handle all enum values
[20:34] <!Sven2> You added TODO comments to some undefined switch cases?
[20:34] <!Newton> Peter: agree ^^
[20:34] <loriel> Where previously switch values were not handled, and where I could not come up with an obvious way to handle all of them without changing what the code does, I added default: /* TODO */ break; to silence the compiler
[20:35] <loriel> err, enum values were not handled by cases in the switch
[20:35] <loriel> Where every case returned and there was another return after the switch, I just moved that into a default: case, etc.
[20:35] <!Sven2> Sounds dangerous to me
[20:35] <!Sven2> Oh, default case. That's OK.
[20:36] <!Newton> Zapper, still there?
[20:36] <!Sven2> Well. I'm not sure if it's on our agenda right now, but I'd like to talk about the inventory system
[20:36] <!Newton> okay
[20:37] <!Mimmo_O> okay, re
[20:37] <!Newton> whats the issue?
[20:37] <!Sven2> Specifically "left hand, right hand". As I said, when I wrote the tutorial messages, I realized it's somehow weird to explain this
[20:38] <Zapper_> yes, newton
[20:38] <Ape> At least the current system with three slots is very bad. Maybe you should only allow having two objects (left and right hands)
[20:38] <!Sven2> So you just picked up a rock. But it can end up anywhere in your inventory
[20:38] <!Sven2> Might be in your left hand, might be in your right hand, or might be anywhere
[20:38] <!Newton> just the explanation? You could write: "you have two items selected, ..."
[20:38] <!Newton> "... the first with the left mouse button,..."
[20:38] <!PeterW> Seconded @ Ape
[20:39] <!Newton> Sven2: no
[20:39] <!Sven2> Two objects is not that much if one of them is always the shovel
[20:39] <!PeterW> I'm always in favor of reducing inventory slots :)
[20:39] <!Newton> it ends uup in your selected slot when the selected slot is empty
[20:39] <!Newton> otherwise in the next free slot
[20:39] <!PeterW> Then you don't always have a shovel?
[20:39] <!Randrian> well Peter, with only one you wont get very far in OC
[20:40] <Ape> Drop the shovel if you need two slots for carrying? And I have played Clonk with only one inventory slot a lot
[20:40] <!PeterW> A knight doesn't need to dig. I think that's actually a pretty good idea from a tactical point of view.
[20:40] <!Newton> Sven2: how should the items be collected differently?
[20:40] <Zapper_> Ape, nah, not the same
[20:40] <!Sven2> Well. When you play it, being able to put two pieces of loam on your left+right hand is actually pretty convenient
[20:40] <Zapper_> in CR you could build without a tool, chop trees without a tool and dig without a tool
[20:40] <Zapper_> you need tools for each actions in OC, though
[20:40] <!Sven2> I don't know. It's just that it's somehow complicated
[20:40] <loriel> Sven2: Maybe that can be replaced by making resource/consumable-like items like loam 'stackable'...
[20:41] <!Newton> how would it be possible to make it easier? I have the impression that it cant get any easier@collecting
[20:41] <Zapper_> I like it currently - maybe just always colelct the item on the _first_ free slot
[20:41] <Zapper_> whatever it is
[20:41] <!Sven2> Well. At least when you carry two items of loam and consume the first, the second should shift into the usable inventory slot
[20:41] <Zapper_> if you want to have collected items selected, select the first two slots
[20:41] <!Sven2> OR stack all loam items into one slot, yes
[20:42] <!Mimmo_O> then there should be a maximum of items in one stack
[20:42] <!Newton> thats sounds odd. Then the shovel would move to the first inventory slot too@loams shifting
[20:42] <!PeterW> I'm in favor of stacking, yes.
[20:42] <!Newton> how much objects can be stacked is defined by hte object itself
[20:42] <!Newton> #include L_ST
[20:43] <!Mimmo_O> ok
[20:43] <!Newton> MaxStackCount() {return 3;}
[20:43] <Zapper_> stacking material sounds weird to me, though :S
[20:43] <!Randrian> well the shovel wouldn't shift, cause it is selected
[20:43] <!Sven2> Not this kind of stacking. I might want to stack a flint on top of a piece of loam
[20:43] <!Newton> huhß
[20:43] <!Sven2> So I build the bridge first, then when I press again I throw the flint
[20:43] <!Newton> *huh?
[20:43] <Zapper_> The secondary slot could just shift to the next item if the current item vanishs
[20:43] <Zapper_> would have the same effect
[20:43] <!PeterW> You mean that the Clonk is carrying both a loam and a flint in his right hand or something?
[20:43] <!Sven2> Well, that would be a workaround
[20:44] <!Mimmo_O> hm
[20:44] <Zapper_> a workaround that makes sense to the player %(
[20:44] <!Sven2> Yes. There would be only two slots (left+right mouse button). But both would be stackable
[20:44] <!Sven2> With as many items as you can carry
[20:44] <Zapper_> "You have three slots, but you have to stack items on one and then you leave the third empty, gogo!"
[20:44] <Zapper_> mh
[20:44] <!PeterW> This sounds more like you would have two scrollable inventories, CR-style
[20:44] <Ape> But how do you then swap the item on your stack?
[20:44] <!Newton> the not-selected item (the one in the mniddle) could swithc to the primary selected slot when the primary selected slot is empty
[20:45] <!Randrian> that would be a better idea I think.
[20:45] <!Randrian> then this strange stack idea
[20:45] <Anakonda> mouse scroll
[20:45] <!Sven2> Well, OK. But what if you dont want an item to shift there?
[20:45] <!Mimmo_O> yeh, id also like to talk about the scroll
[20:46] <!Mimmo_O> i think zooming should be ctrl / alt / shift + mousewheel
[20:46] <!Sven2> Like, you carry a flag and you don't want to use it for a while
[20:46] <!Mimmo_O> we could use the mousewheel for different things
[20:46] <!Randrian> then the actuall system should fit. (@flag)
[20:46] <!Sven2> The current system
[20:46] <!Randrian> I don't think it would be that usefull if you always have to stack the items manually
[20:46] <Nachtfalter> eg scrolling through the items@mousewheel
[20:47] <!Mimmo_O> or in/decreasing the power of an x-bow
[20:47] <Zapper_> Well, if only a free middle (or third slot) would make items jump around you could still set the HandB tot he other slot
[20:47] <!Mimmo_O> or catapult
[20:47] <!Randrian> then you have on additional click bevor using the iteams, instead of (as is it is now) after using the first
[20:47] <!PeterW> What I meant with "stacking" above is that if you have, say, three loam, the key for activating that loam should not change when you consume one.
[20:47] <!Sven2> That would be really weird to explain
[20:48] <!Sven2> Which brings me to another point: Maybe the left hand could always be the left slot, and the right hand always the right slot?
[20:48] <Zapper_> or objects jump only to slots _before_ their own slot
[20:48] <!Sven2> When you left-click an item, items just switch slots. But the slots remain
[20:48] <JCaesar> PeterW, very important.
[20:48] <!Mimmo_O> Sven2: i also thought about that
[20:48] <!Sven2> I guess a reasonable compromise would be if only items of the same type (or "class" or whatever) shift automatically
[20:48] <!Randrian> well Zappers Idea doenÄt sound that bad
[20:49] <Zapper_> or make another button for "swap middle slot with right hand"
[20:49] <!Sven2> It sounds much too complicated to me
[20:49] <Zapper_> I think that is least confusing for beginners
[20:49] <Zapper_> and enables pros to work at full speed!
[20:50] <!Randrian> well, is it fixed, we have _always_ exaclty three slots?
[20:50] <Zapper_> (in addition to fix the hands on the outer slots of course)
[20:50] <!Mimmo_O> would it be okay for you if we begin talking about goals for next week on 21:00?
[20:50] <!Sven2> Probably not
[20:50] <!Randrian> or should we leave open the possibility to have special Clonks with more
[20:50] <!Sven2> I'm pretty sure there will be Clonks with more spare slots in the future. That's just how things go.
[20:50] <Ape> But do we really need to carry more than two items (yes, including tools when needed)?
[20:50] <Zapper_> Randrian, the button could also just shift the middle item(s) right
[20:50] <Zapper_> if you have three slots it would be a swap
[20:50] <Zapper_> if you have more it would be like scrolling
[20:50] <Zapper_> just not for the first slot
[20:50] <Zapper_> which is fixed
[20:51] <!PeterW> I'm still not convinced the whole problem can't be avoided by having only two slots - or at least making one slot ("backpack?") special.
[20:51] <Zapper_> peter, that's what I am talking about ;)
[20:51] <Zapper_> the hands would be fixed at the outer slots
[20:51] <Zapper_> the middle on would be the backpack
[20:51] <!Sven2> Yes. That's a seperate issue
[20:51] <Zapper_> and you'd have a button "swap backpack with HandB"
[20:52] <Zapper_> or "shift backpack" (only through hand B)
[20:52] <Zapper_> (if you have more than three slots)
[20:52] <Zapper_> As I said: would be easiest for beginners (no confusing "OMG where did that loam come from") and would enable experienced players to play fast
[20:52] <!Randrian> why not A? I would prefer A as the hand that is the actuall item and B the secondary (like shovel)
[20:52] <Zapper_> without throwing accidentally stuff around
[20:52] <!PeterW> Well, that's an awful lot of buttons...
[20:52] <Zapper_> Randrian, ok
[20:52] <!Sven2> Well. "Swap backpack with Hand A" is currently "Left click backpack". Which is fine
[20:53] <Zapper_> its only 1 :<
[20:53] <!Randrian> well the one slot could be displayed aboud the others, or in another color
[20:53] <!Sven2> Or "2" I think
[20:53] <Zapper_> Sven, why is it too slow for your loam then?
[20:53] <!PeterW> "Swap left right" "Swap backpack left" "Swap backpack right"?
[20:53] <Zapper_> no, only right
[20:53] <Ape> The button should be middle mouse button, I think. That would swap the backpack item with left hand item
[20:53] <!Sven2> Because it's so unnecessary
[20:53] <Zapper_> if you want anything else you can still click the item
[20:53] <Zapper_> (will be faster than one hundred shits anyway)
[20:53] <!Mimmo_O> or we use the mousewheel for that
[20:53] <Zapper_> *shifts
[20:54] <Zapper_> <.<
[20:54] <!Sven2> I have neither mouse wheel nor middle button btw :(
[20:54] <!PeterW> Seconded :)
[20:54] <!Sven2> It's common to not have them on laptops, so I wouldn't make them crucial for gameplay
[20:55] <!PeterW> So Zapper's idea was that we only have one key to swap backpack to left hand (= right click?)?
[20:55] <!Newton> ehm, I need to throw something in: Imagine you are using a catapult. You can of course load the catapult like the bow via Drag and drop of an item of your inventory to the extraslot of the catapult
[20:56] <+occ> ben * 87f868b2aff0 src (197 files in 16 dirs): avoid lots of gcc warnings
[20:56] <Zapper_> my suggestion: make hands fixed at slots 1 and 3. Have a button "swap middle slot with slot 3"
[20:56] <!PeterW> How are you supposed to take an object into the main hand?
[20:56] <!Newton> but which item will the catapult use if the player doesnt do that?
[20:56] <!Newton> keep that in mind when you discuss about the inventory system
[20:56] <Zapper_> peter, you cann still click the item
[20:56] <Zapper_> or press one of the number buttons
[20:56] <Zapper_> like now
[20:56] <!Mimmo_O> 1
[20:56] <!PeterW> Which is nothing you want to do under time pressure
[20:57] <!Sven2> Yes. I'm not against the whole idea of our current inventory system. I just tihnk, like Zapper, that left+right hand slots should be fixed
[20:57] <Zapper_> uh, peter
[20:57] <!PeterW> Well, which is somewhat okay, I suppose, since you would do it in preperation.
[20:57] <Zapper_> that is how it works in every game
[20:57] <Zapper_> be it (very fast) ego shooters or anything else
[20:57] <!Sven2> We can keep the current method of selecting left+right hand item. It's just a graphical issue of ordering items
[20:57] <!Sven2> Items can be reordered already. No need to reorder items AND hands
[20:57] <!Newton> Sven2: I didnt suppose that. However thats one point I didnt think about yet either
[20:57] <Ape> Maybe you could press two number buttons (like 1 and 2) and then it would swap the item between the slots (1 and 2)
[20:57] <Zapper_> ack, sven
[20:58] <Zapper_> ape, too confusing
[20:58] <!Sven2> When I reorder lefT+right hand, I always hink of my Clonk having arms crossed somehow ;)
[20:58] <!Newton> hehe
[20:58] <Ape> I agree with Sven
[20:58] <!Newton> so, whats the concept you agreed on?
[20:58] <!Newton> (I was afk)
[20:58] <!PeterW> We haven't really agreed on a whole lot, I fear ;)
[20:58] <Zapper_> first, make hands fixed
[20:58] <!Newton> oh
[20:58] <Zapper_> on slots 1 and 3 for example
[20:59] <!Newton> ok
[20:59] <Zapper_> and my suggestion would to to basically leave it with this (plus maybe introducing a button to swap the middle slot with the handB
[20:59] <Zapper_> *would be
[20:59] <!Newton> and how do i use the one in the middle?
[20:59] <!Sven2> When you left-click slot 2 or press number 2, it switches that item with the left hand
[20:59] <!Newton> I see
[20:59] <Zapper_> newton, either shift+3 (or whatever) or swapbuttonofdoom+click
[20:59] <!Sven2> That would stay the same. It's just switch the item instead of the hand
[20:59] <!Newton> and if i click 1?
[20:59] <!Newton> or press 1
[20:59] <!Sven2> Well, nothing I guess?
[20:59] <Zapper_> nothing happens
[20:59] <!Newton> and if I press 3?
[21:00] <Zapper_> you swap the item on 1 with 3
[21:00] <!Sven2> If you left click it
[21:00] <!Newton> so the hotkeys are always "swithc with 1"
[21:00] <!Sven2> No
[21:00] <Zapper_> well
[21:00] <!Sven2> Oh, right
[21:00] <Zapper_> i'd like to have shift+numbers for the other hand
[21:00] <!Newton> shift+num are used for crew selection, iirc
[21:01] <Zapper_> so my magic swap-with-backpack button would be shift+2
[21:01] <Zapper_> mh
[21:01] <Zapper_> you would need item selection faster than crew selection I think
[21:01] <Ape> I think it should be swap with backpack: 1 for left hand <->backpack and 2 for right hand <-> backback
[21:01] <Zapper_> maybe one on shift and one on ctrl?
[21:01] <Zapper_> ape, how would you swap your hands then?
[21:01] <Zapper_> and what happens if you have 4 slots?
[21:01] <!Sven2> Well, pressing 2 would switch the middle to the left. Pressing 3 after that would switch left and right
[21:02] <!Newton> by the way, this is how I use the current system
[21:02] <!Sven2> So it's possible. It's just a bit weird that pressing 1 never ever does anything ;)
[21:02] <!Mimmo_O> i think 1: swap 1 with BP, 2: swap 1 and 3, 3: swap 3 with BP
[21:02] <!Newton> use the one in slot 1
[21:02] <Zapper_> still wouldnt work with four slots, sven
[21:02] <!Newton> press 2
[21:02] <!Newton> use the one in slot 2
[21:02] <Ape> Maybe we shouldn't ever have 4 slots, but maybe make the backpack stackable
[21:02] <Zapper_> newton, same for me
[21:02] <Anakonda> what about ctrl + num?
[21:02] <!PeterW> Hm, maybe 1 = switch left/right?
[21:03] <!Sven2> Mimmo_Os idea sounds nice imo
[21:03] <Zapper_> ctrl is harder to access than shift - but I would also say to have shift+number for the other hand (and put the crew selection to ctrö+number)
[21:03] <Zapper_> peter, imo yes
[21:03] <!PeterW> Heh, I think it's a bit hard to discuss right now with so many proposals going around :)
[21:03] <Zapper_> sven, mimmos system doesnt work with four slots
[21:04] <Zapper_> and i dont think we should agree on never making more than three slots possible already
[21:04] <!Sven2> Yes, that's a problem
[21:04] <Zapper_> I like my system (aka basically the current one)
[21:05] <!Sven2> Also, "Press the number of the item to use" is an easy concept
[21:05] <Zapper_> yepp
[21:05] <Ape> <Zapper_> ape, how would you swap your hands then? <--- Press keys 1,2,1
[21:05] <!Sven2> Depends on how often you need to switch the shovel
[21:05] <!PeterW> My current favorite would be to have the left-button slot always fixed on slot 1, the right hand moving across all other slots.
[21:05] <Zapper_> and shift+pressthenumber = use on hand b
[21:05] <Zapper_> sven, you could have a sword, a shield and a bow
[21:05] <!Newton> PeterW: something like this applies arleady now
[21:05] <!Newton> but now its the right slow
[21:05] <Zapper_> and want to fight wiith everything
[21:05] <!Sven2> Ye. Right slot fixed makes more sense imo
Session Close: Mon Jan 25 21:05:16 2010

Session Start: Mon Jan 25 21:05:16 2010
Session Ident: #openclonk-dev
[21:05] * Disconnected
[21:05] * Attempting to rejoin channel #openclonk-dev
[21:05] * Rejoined channel #openclonk-dev
[21:05] * Topic is 'The OpenClonk development channel | Speak English here! |�'
[21:05] * Set by Newton on Tue Jan 19 15:40:25
[21:05] * ChanServ sets mode: +ao Mimmo_O Mimmo_O
[21:05] <!Newton> if the slot 3 is secondary-selected, you cant put your primary-selection on the slot 3 with pressing the hotkey. Only with the mouse
[21:05] <!Sven2> Well, that's the way things turned out during gameplay for me
[21:05] <Ape> Slots LBR (swap left and backpack) BLR (swap right and backpack) BRL (swap left and backpack) RBL
[21:05] <!PeterW> Well, whatever
[21:05] <Zapper_> and give the number keys not a "select" functionality but a "swap with hand" functionality
[21:06] <Matthi> Is the dev-meeting still underway?
[21:06] <!Sven2> I think we should just implement the "switch items instead of slots" first and keep the current number functionalities. Then see how it goes.
[21:06] <!PeterW> I'd reason that the left mouse button is the one you'd use more often. So it's the "hotkey" slot you prepare some often-used item into.
[21:06] <!Mimmo_O> Matthi: yes
[21:06] <!Mimmo_O> were discussing about item-slots
[21:06] <Zapper_> ack at sven
[21:06] <!Sven2> PeterW: The often-used items vary a lot
[21:06] <Zapper_> plus adding a shift+number key for the HandB
[21:06] * Luchs^away ( Quit (Ping timeout�)
[21:06] <!PeterW> Whereas the right-click slot is for using stuff from the backpack.
[21:07] <Zapper_> well what is the "backpack" when you have a shield a sword and a bow and want to use everything?
[21:07] <!Newton> Sven2: can you write your concept down into the forum? There seem to be some different ideas going on here, I lost the overview
[21:07] <!Sven2> Yes. I believe it would be mine+Zapper's
[21:07] <!PeterW> Plus we need stacking! :)
[21:07] <Zapper_> stacking sucks :<
[21:08] <!Sven2> I think that's a seperate issue we might solve later
[21:08] <Ape> The stacking should be only with the backpack slot and it should be scrollable
[21:08] * Luchs ( has joined #openclonk-dev
[21:08] <Zapper_> ok
[21:08] <!Mimmo_O> is the itemslot-discussion over then?
[21:08] <Zapper_> at sven
[21:08] <!PeterW> If I have three loam I don't want to have them distributed over three slots.
[21:08] <!Sven2> Maybe it's anough if we allow loam to stack
[21:08] <!Mimmo_O> seems it isnt
[21:08] <!PeterW> But yes, it's kind of a seperate issue.
[21:08] <!PeterW> For the record: I'd have the other slots blocked then - so it's not really stacking as it is implemented right now.
[21:08] <Zapper_> so I will always bring 3 loam into fights to pin down an enemy to the ground? :o
[21:09] <Zapper_> mh
[21:09] <Zapper_> confusing!
[21:09] <!PeterW> Well, depends on the interface
[21:09] <Zapper_> nothing against the idea, but confusing!
[21:09] <Zapper_> I also think we should just fix the hands for now and see how it turns out
[21:09] <Zapper_> (or loam could always build until you stop clicking using every loam in your inventory)
[21:09] <!Newton> its not possible to throw stacked objects "einzeln"
[21:10] <!Newton> singely?
[21:10] <Zapper_> (with the loam loosing "weight" like the current crystal)
[21:10] <!Mimmo_O> each
[21:10] <!PeterW> one by one?
[21:10] <!Newton> right
[21:10] <Zapper_> would have the same effect as peters stack
[21:10] <!PeterW> Well, as I said: It's not really what you consider stacking right now.
[21:10] <!Newton> like arrows: you can only throw the whole arrow pack
[21:10] <Zapper_> just not use a different interface
[21:10] <!Mimmo_O> Zapper_: that would just cause a lot of mini-loams
[21:10] <!PeterW> Which might not always be what you want @ arrows
[21:10] <Zapper_> and?
[21:10] <!Mimmo_O> it was disturbing with the crystals in CR
[21:10] <Zapper_> mini loams could even break on hit
[21:11] <!Newton> loamball-fight!
[21:11] <!Newton> einseifen verboten!
[21:11] <Zapper_> or could fuse into one again when you collect two mini loams, I dont know
[21:11] <Zapper_> <.<
[21:12] <!Newton> ok, we are 12 minutes late, but still. Mimmo?
[21:12] <!Mimmo_O> is the itemslot-discussion over then?
[21:12] <!PeterW> Well, I guess we will have to test it either way.
[21:12] <!Newton> it should be continued in the forum at least
[21:12] <!Mimmo_O> Newton wanted to talk about the weapons-system in detail
[21:12] <!Newton> ah, right
[21:12] * Gurkenglas ( Quit (Connection reset by peer�)
[21:13] <!Mimmo_O> how long do you think it will take?
[21:13] <!Newton> depends
[21:13] <!Mimmo_O> we need to talk about goals for next week, tough
[21:13] <!Newton> 15min?
[21:13] <!Mimmo_O> ok
[21:13] <!Newton> okay, then we do that first
[21:13] <!Mimmo_O> if its okay for you
[21:13] <!Newton> I am not sure if this interests everyone
[21:13] <!Mimmo_O> so, what are your goals?
[21:14] <!PeterW> We could also have some building/base/whatever discussion in case there's still energy left for that ;)
[21:14] <!Mimmo_O> i think i will continue on the jar and boomshire
[21:14] <!Mimmo_O> PeterW: after the weapon-discussion
[21:14] <!Newton> well, I got two exams next week, so my goal is to pass them
[21:14] <!Mimmo_O> ck, Isilkor, Newton, PeterW, Randrian, Sven2, loriel ?
[21:14] <!Newton> not much space for clonk, there
[21:15] <!Randrian> well I'll continue with animatons
[21:15] <!ck> Just look at the bugtracker. In particular I want to get rid of the display problems.
[21:15] <!Newton> perhaps I do a little CSS stuff for the blog and will definitely give you guys accounts. Even if it must be on request
[21:15] <!Randrian> and have a try on the item carrying
[21:15] <loriel> My goals are to get more familiar with the engine source, but at no particular speed. And then handle isolated things on the bug tracker.
[21:15] <!PeterW> I'll continue working on the league scripts, which won't be directly visible here.
[21:16] <Zapper_> i dont have much time left
[21:16] <!PeterW> Maybe I'll start working on a base concept - I think that's what a lot of the remove-buildings-discussion actually boiled down to.
[21:16] <!ck> hm, what league scripts? Did I miss anything? :o
[21:16] <Zapper_> But I still think I should write the blog entry first (in which I hope to cover everything) and have that as a base for discussion
[21:16] <!Newton> I'd be great if someone fixed those two bugs/feature requests:
[21:17] <!PeterW> Just the old CR league. I'm working on some changes.
[21:17] <!Mimmo_O> Zapper_: ich kann dir meine aufzeichnungen zukommen lassne, aber da steht nicht soooviel detailliertes drin
[21:17] <!ck> oh, ok
[21:17] <Zapper_> was that a MSG just now, Mimmo_O? my client is weird
[21:17] <Zapper_> peter, which client do you use on your mac?
[21:18] <!PeterW> X-Chat currently
[21:18] <Zapper_> mh
[21:18] <Ape> Do we have a master server? If not, what do we have to do to get one?
[21:18] <Zapper_> hire quit!
[21:18] <!Mimmo_O> Zapper_: it was a message to this channel
[21:18] <Zapper_> oh, okay
[21:18] <!Mimmo_O> plox not quit
[21:18] <Zapper_> just was confused because it was german
[21:18] <!Mimmo_O> the he has control about us
[21:19] <!Sven2> I'll be busy with the tutorial, fixing engine bugs on the way...
[21:19] <!Newton> Sven2: 83 and 100 perhaps? :>
[21:20] <!Sven2> I'd rather fix messages :P
[21:20] <!Sven2> Btw: A simple master server would be really cool
[21:20] <!Newton> aw
[21:20] <!Sven2> Maybe Isilkor could host the CR league scripts?
[21:20] <!Newton> before we even got binaries?@simple master server
[21:20] <Ape> Newton: Why not?
[21:20] <!Sven2> It's just annoying having to type the IP for test games
[21:21] * !Randrian ( Quit (Ping timeout�)
[21:21] <!Mimmo_O> yes
[21:21] <!PeterW> We could also try to somehow rig the current master server to accept OC games.
[21:21] <!Mimmo_O> becasue you are too lazy to press ctrl+c
[21:21] <!PeterW> That is, without checksum.
[21:21] <!Sven2> Mimmo was
[21:21] <!Mimmo_O> not anymore
[21:22] <!PeterW> Maybe the hooligans won't strike as fast if there's no audience.
[21:22] <!Mimmo_O> 84.143 is okay
[21:22] <!Mimmo_O> rest is wrong
[21:22] <!Isilkor> Sven2: if it's just PHP, we can also put the scripts on the main webspace
[21:22] <!Isilkor> i.e., newton's
[21:23] <!Newton> ah
[21:23] <!Sven2> PHP+database I guess
[21:23] <!Newton> well, later
[21:23] <!Newton> but its possible, yeah
[21:23] <!Newton> got to go
[21:23] <Zapper_> I am off now!
[21:23] <Zapper_> bye!
[21:23] <!Sven2> It's not hard to set up. I have a test setup on my laptop
[21:23] * Zapper_ ( Quit (Quit: Zapper_�)
[21:23] <!Newton> if someone needs a blog account, msg me
[21:23] <!Newton> here or via PM in the forum
[21:23] <!Sven2> OK
[21:24] <!Newton> Sven2: you can send me a message what i got to do for that
[21:24] -> *Newton* !!1
[21:24] <!Sven2> I think PeterW has access to the current scripts
[21:24] <!Sven2> My version is probably outdated
[21:24] <!PeterW> Obviously, yes.
[21:24] <Ape> Isn't the master server code open?
[21:24] <!PeterW> No
[21:25] <Ape> Well I shouldn't it be? If the game is open source, it would be certainly nice to host alternative servers?
[21:25] <Ape> -I
[21:25] <!PeterW> It's "secret" enough I had to ask for access
[21:25] <!Sven2> You can write an open source replacement if you want
[21:25] <!Sven2> I don't see why it "needs" to be open
[21:25] <!Isilkor> Well, I've still to prepare some for university tomorrow, so I'll be gone now
[21:26] <!Isilkor> see you later
[21:26] <Ape> Well I can't see any reason why it should be closed
[21:26] <JCaesar> I think there are several(?) implementations of the Masterserver.
[21:26] <!PeterW> Security reasons.
[21:26] <!ck> cya Isilkor 
[21:26] <!Isilkor> Ape: matthes doesn't want the current scripts open, but maybe quit would supply his
[21:26] <!Sven2> Well, we have a finished implementation that's closed
[21:26] <Ape> PeterW: Isn't it just: Take a game entry, serve it to others
[21:27] <!PeterW> Well, no
[21:27] * Mortimer ( has joined #openclonk-dev
[21:27] <Ape> And delete old entries, if they are not there anymore
[21:27] <JCaesar> Very basically spoken: yes.
[21:27] <Ape> What else there could be?
[21:28] <JCaesar> League?
[21:28] <Ape> Well, do we need a league anyway?
[21:28] <JCaesar> That's something you better don't ask.
[21:28] <!PeterW> The current leagues scripts are about 11K LOC
[21:29] <!Sven2> I just want to see test games without typing IPs. I don't care if it has league and I really don't care if it's Open Source
[21:29] <JCaesar> Is Quits MS still running?
[21:29] <!Sven2> That's like the "We shouldn't use DirectX because it's proprietary"-issue
[21:29] <!PeterW> Well, for now I do think we should get some simple-and-stupid server version up.
[21:29] <!Newton> afk
[21:30] <!PeterW> Having the whole league suite will be problematic on a lot of possible fronts.
[21:30] <Ape> Of course there is nothing wrong with having closed leagues, but there should be a open master server that just lists the games
[21:30] <!Sven2> Replicated servers like Quit's would probably work already, because they don't do the version check the official server does
[21:31] <!PeterW> Well, let's ask him?
[21:32] <!Sven2> Dunno. I still think we can as well use the scripting from
[21:32] <!Sven2> Might have to ask matthes first
[21:33] <!PeterW> Well, I don't know whether he'll like the idea
[21:33] <!Sven2> We don't know about Quit either :P
[21:33] <!PeterW> Depending on how will host the scripts
[21:33] <!PeterW> He was pretty paranoid when I talked about exposing the admin interface
[21:34] <!Sven2> Advantage of the CR server is, we already have league scripting we might need later
[21:34] <JCaesar> Add an extra entry to the query, /league/server/unverified, showing unverified stuff to. Done! 
[21:34] <!PeterW> Giving the whole code to an untrusted source is a /bit/ more problematic, as far as I'm concerned.
[21:35] <JCaesar> What's so dangerous about giving away code? Is it bad-written?
[21:35] <!PeterW> source -> target , I suppose
[21:35] <!Sven2> Newton is untrusted?
[21:35] <!Mimmo_O> everyone from the internet is untrusted
[21:35] <JCaesar> None is trusted.
[21:35] <!PeterW> Well, I don't know what we are talking about exactly
[21:36] <!PeterW> But Ape talked about making the whole thing public, and that's out of question I think.
[21:36] * Cronos_ ( Quit (Broken pipe�)
[21:36] <!Sven2> Yes
[21:36] <!Sven2> I just thought about having a replica running on
[21:36] * Randrian ( has joined #openclonk-dev
[21:36] * ChanServ sets mode: +ao Randrian Randrian
[21:36] <!PeterW> <JCaesar> What's so dangerous about giving away code? Is it bad-written? <- Well, yes. It's PHP, after all.
[21:36] <Ape> I don't require the league things, but the main thing: listing games
[21:36] <!Newton> Quit wrote a masterserver, no? We can ask him if we can use his software
[21:36] <!Newton> if it runs on the openclonk-webspace
[21:37] <Luchs> it was PHP+MySQL, iirc
[21:37] <!PeterW> Plus in contrast to, say, the Clonk engine, we are putting matthes' server at risk here
[21:37] <!Sven2> I didn't mean to publish it
[21:38] <!PeterW> I was replying to Caesar
[21:38] <Ape> Well, if it's so hard to use old code, maybe we should just rewrite the thing and make it public
[21:39] <JCaesar> Then there are several questions: In which language, and with the old or with a new protocoll?
[21:40] <Ape> If there is problems or space for improvement on the protocol, we could make a new one
[21:40] <Ape> But if it's perfect we should use it
[21:41] <loriel> JCaesar: In whatever language gets us something workiny by next week without messing with the engine :]
[21:41] <!PeterW> So to finish my point - it might not be that much of a problem if, say, Newton or another trusted person hosts the league scripts. On the other hand, I think we may lose flexibility if we copy the old league stuff. 
[21:42] <!PeterW> If we get two diverging versions, things might get messy. Plus I don't really like the thought of having two league sytems running on two servers.
[21:43] <!Sven2> Yes. If we start developing more stuff for the server, we'll be in trouble because only " trusted people" can edit the code
[21:43] <!PeterW> That's more of a personal reason, but I do still think that the league makes more sense with a registration process in the background - and then there'd be no problem just having the whole thing on the server
[21:43] <!PeterW> Yep
[21:43] <Ape> Maybe the game listing master server could be separated from the league system. The master server would just list the games and then the host could connect to a league server and send the corresponding data there
[21:44] <!Sven2> That would be the "use Quit's server"-option
[21:44] <JCaesar> We would have to keep two protocols then. And doing that without modifications to would be hard.
[21:44] <loriel> Quit does not want to hand out his code.
[21:45] <JCaesar> Quit said, he uses parts of the code...
[21:45] <!PeterW> Yeah, forgot he has parts from kk in there
[21:45] <!Sven2> Well, whatever. I'm off to the movies.
[21:46] <!PeterW> Hmp. I guess I'll look into the matter of how complicated I'd be to use the server.
[21:47] <!PeterW> It's already prepared to service multiple games (CX legacy) so it should be possible. But probably not tested well.
[21:47] <Ape> I think we should use our own master server and league system. That would make us not dependent on servers.
[21:47] * ck_ ( has joined #openclonk-dev
[21:48] <!PeterW> But instead dependent on some other guy's server?
[21:48] <Ape> Well we could write and new master server and make the code public, so that anybody can host their own servers
[21:48] <Ape> *write a new
[21:48] * !ck (~ck@88.130.218.euirc-d33e2215) Quit (Ping timeout�)
[21:48] <!PeterW> The whole point about the master server ist that there is only one... :)
[21:48] <!PeterW> -t
[21:50] <loriel> But it is an open server now!
[21:50] <!PeterW> Plus it should have become clear that I don't really believe open source is a good idea in this case.
[21:51] <!PeterW> Well, is already open in that you can use it without registration.
[21:52] <!PeterW> The only problem is that the code is now open so we can't do our simple newbie fake-protection trick.
[21:52] <!PeterW> (the engine code, that is.)
[21:52] <JCaesar> Then we should add the possibillity to add multiple ones.
[21:52] <JCaesar> @masterservers, if there is only one.
[21:53] <!PeterW> Then it's not really a master server anymore, now is it?
[21:53] <loriel> So?
[21:54] <JCaesar> I dunno. Thats too much of a theoretical question.
[21:54] <loriel> I see nothing wrong with the idea of hosting a seprate master server for, say, a cm
[21:54] <loriel> on a local network
[21:54] <!PeterW> I mean, don't we replace manually managing host IPs with manually managing a master host list? :)
[21:54] <Ape> To bring to a head, does it even have to be a master server? It could be a decentralized game list distribution system
[21:54] <loriel> Ideally master servers would change less.
[21:55] <!PeterW> Local networks already work fine without a server.
[21:55] <JCaesar> Ape, thought about that too, but it's much too complex.
[21:55] <loriel> Ape: How would the decentralised nodes get into contact in the first place?
[21:55] <!PeterW> I don't think we have enough nodes to run Kademlia ;)
[21:55] <JCaesar> Masterserver!
[21:55] <ck_> Let's use Jabber. Anyone up for writing an XEP? :)
[21:56] <Ape> Of course it doesn't have to be really decentralized so that every client is a master server :P But we could have few running master servers and possibility to anybody to host their own
[21:59] <JCaesar> And a Masterserver would expose all the others, so they would add themselves automatically, balance the load and avoid periods where players are lost because one server is down. Sounds nice...
[22:00] <!PeterW> "Nice" in the sense of "overly complicated", yes. I still don't see why we need more than one server.
[22:00] <JCaesar> You got the point. :P
[22:00] <Ape> PeterW: Just because we can
[22:01] <JCaesar> And it's free. Who wants to do it?
[22:01] <loriel> Can we change the protocol to json, at least?
[22:02] <!PeterW> Just because you think it'd be fun to run a server for a few minutes, lure some players on it until they realize there's nobody there and leave?
[22:02] <JCaesar> Why json? I don't like that funny ini-Style either, but json... :/
[22:02] <loriel> JCaesar: It seems reasonably close to the ini style
[22:03] <loriel> and is somewhat "standard"
[22:03] <!PeterW> I don't think that's enough fun to outweight the security and redevelopment costs.
[22:03] <ck_> What's the problem with the current protocol?
[22:03] <Ape> Well the worst case is that servers are closed down, they don't want to host it for OC, or that they require registrations etc
[22:03] <loriel> ck_: It is strange :}
[22:04] <JCaesar> And overblown.
[22:04] <ck_> We can still write our own if that happens, Ape
[22:04] <!PeterW> Well, I'm all about keeping registration, so you're talking to the wrong guy,
[22:04] <JCaesar> We don't need to transmit the ressources and the Player colors in advance, do we?
[22:05] <ck_> Normally XML is said to be bloated, but the .ini-style stuff is actually pretty simple no :o?
[22:05] <loriel> .init-style is okay, but *indented* .ini-style?
[22:05] <loriel> -t
[22:05] <!PeterW> It was the easiest extension I could think of that would allow recursive data structures.
[22:05] <!PeterW> What would you have done?
[22:05] <Ape> XML?
[22:06] <loriel> xml, json, something with some sort of delimeters instead of indentation
[22:06] <JCaesar> [/Player] !11
[22:06] <Ape> (It has overhead, but it's easier to use)
[22:06] <!PeterW> Yeah, we did that a few years ago. No thanks. @ XML
[22:06] <!PeterW> Well
[22:07] <loriel> I am not saying there is something technically wrong with it :)
[22:07] <!PeterW> The point is, everybody's free to write a new StdCompiler. I just used the existing StdCompiler used for game data to write references.
[22:07] <!PeterW> If we have a new StdCompiler, it's easy to make the engine output the new format. We can even switch freely back and forth.
[22:10] * Ape (~ape@88.193.0.euirc-fdc0a58a) Quit (Client exited�)
[22:11] <!PeterW> Just so I don't end of choking this discussion: An argument in favor of using something else is that the current INI stuff doesn't properly support Unicode and Encodings, as far as I know.
[22:11] <!PeterW> (= if someone hasn't changed that by now)
[22:11] <loriel> Feel free to choke the discussion, it is really besides the point, anyway :)
[22:11] <!PeterW> + grammar, getting tired :)
[22:13] * B_E is now known as b_e
[22:14] <!PeterW> Too tired to discuss buildings, actually. Afk for now.
[22:17] <JCaesar>
[22:18] <!Mimmo_O> i will go off now
[22:18] <!Mimmo_O> will anyone bring the logs in the forums?
[22:19] * Nachtfalter (nachtfalt@217.72.213.euirc-961f5eff) has left #openclonk-dev
[22:20] <!Mimmo_O> or is every discussion here at the end, PeterW, loriel?
[22:20] <loriel> I think we are done :)
[22:20] <ck_> I can upload the logs even though I got disconnected once
[22:21] <!Mimmo_O> if its at the end, i can also do it
[22:21] <ck_> great, please do :)
[22:21] <!Mimmo_O> sure