IRCMeeting/20100405

Summary

  • Secondary use of objects
    • Just pass a boolean "alt" parameter to ControlUse*
  • Tutorials
    • 1. Basic controls, digging, loam, flints
    • 2. Crew, items (dynamite, grappling hook, ...), vehicles (if any)
    • 3. Weapons
  • Introduce reference semantics for arrays (to be consistent with proplists)
  • Agreed on objects and scenarios we want to have for the first release (see forums thread)
  • Use (blurred) screenshots for startup menu backgrounds until we have something better

Full Log

18:57:37-Mimmo_O:#openclonk-dev- Meeting. ping!
18:57:46<!Mimmo_O> pong
18:58:07<!Zapper> whoop
18:58:25<!Maikel> hi
18:58:55<!Newton> pong
18:59:03< ck_> pong
18:59:38< Spell> .
19:00:01<!Mimmo_O> 1.) Make a more concrete concept for what tutorials we need and what the content should be
19:00:02< Ringwaul> :D
19:00:27<!Mimmo_O> how will we do this? gobby?
19:00:37<!Zapper> boo
19:00:46<!Newton> irc
19:00:50<!Newton> wait, mimmo
19:00:55<!Zapper> imo we need a tutorial for the melee weapons
19:01:06<!Mimmo_O> i think we need a tutorial for the basic controls
19:01:07<!Zapper> using a sword, shield, bat
19:01:11<!Zapper> right
19:01:11<!Newton> the stuff i mentioned was stuff that could be discussed later
19:01:21<!Newton> perhaps there are other topics that others want to discuss
19:01:27<!Mimmo_O> ok
19:01:29<!Mimmo_O> KaiWolf
19:01:34<!Mimmo_O> you wanted to talk about two mice
19:01:46<!Mimmo_O> if he is there
19:02:05<!Mimmo_O> well
19:02:08<!Newton> *wanted to discuss at the team meeting
19:02:23< Ringwaul> We should also discuss secondary functions
19:02:38<!Newton> ok
19:02:55<!Mimmo_O> i think we need them.
19:03:02< Ringwaul> x)
19:03:19<!Newton> well, whats the issue and how do you think it should be solved?
19:03:37<!Zapper> The problem with the how-to-dig-out-earth is still unsolved, right?
19:03:46<!Newton> yes
19:03:56< Ringwaul> Currently, items which would benefit seriously from secondary functions are the shovel, and a magic casting item
19:04:01<!Newton> I think I mentioned the two solutions that were proposed a the OCM in the forum
19:04:05<!Zapper> mh
19:04:35< Ringwaul> For items like the musket or bow, it could be used to select projectile type quickly (like in hazard)
19:05:08<!Zapper> if you have an item on slot A, you should trigger the second functionality with holding A and hitting B, imo
19:05:23<!Mimmo_O> that sounds weird
19:05:25<!Zapper> You would dig with LMB and toggle digging out earth with right click
19:05:38< Ringwaul> That would work well for the shovel
19:05:45<!Newton> but do we need / should we support full ControlUseAlt* support for a secondary function? In words: Should this "secondary" function do the same calls as the first function? Or should it be perhaps just one button
19:06:25<!Newton> I fear if we offer that extensive interface, object developers will make use of it for every object imaginable
19:06:30<!Mimmo_O> i think we should use a fully seperate function
19:06:30-!- amki [~Helmi@euirc-dbae74ce.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
19:06:35<!Newton> which is... really not the thing we should aim for actually
19:06:41< Ringwaul> I was thinking possibly ControlUse*(object, ix, iy, bool alt)
19:06:47<!Zapper> But making this a button and not a switch should be fine, imo
19:06:57<!Newton> Ringwaul: so the complete interface
19:07:02<!Zapper> (aka, only "AltUse" not "AltUseStart" and "AltUseStop")
19:07:37<!Maikel> But what is the problem if conent developers will use it for every object imaginable, as long as we don't do that I see no problem therein
19:07:41< ck_> I don't think that the (theoretical) possibility that people might abuse this should prevent us from implementing a superior solution
19:07:41< Ringwaul> @Newton yep
19:08:41< Ringwaul> Also, as soon as we have a secondary use, that secondary use can be a menu which allows >2 functions
19:09:01<!Mimmo_O> mhh
19:09:16<!Newton> Zapper: the problem with holding A and hitting B is: it is not fit for a magic-chooser, not fit for switch arrows and for many other things. Only for dig-out-earth-chunks
19:09:43<!Zapper> it should be fine for switching arrows (while aiming of course)
19:09:47<!Zapper> true for the magic thing, though
19:10:03<!Zapper> Do we have one standard button left? Like ALT?
19:10:10<!Maikel> I prefer the general solution with the agreement to not overuse it inside core OC packs
19:10:16<!Mimmo_O> isnt ctrl free too?
19:10:16<!Newton> of course@alt
19:10:17<!Zapper> the obvious solution would be putting the second functionality on ALT+mousebutton
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19:10:25<!Newton> ctrl, alt, shift is all free for mouse buttons
19:10:30<!Zapper> shift is not :<
19:10:32<!Mimmo_O> shift is used
19:10:32< Ringwaul> Excellt :)
19:10:32<!Zapper> throw!
19:10:37<!Loriel> Clearly switching arrows should be done by activating the primary control for the arrow
19:11:05<!Sven2> re
19:11:05< Ringwaul> Well, you cannot activate an arrow when it is inside the bow
19:11:09<!Newton> activating primary control for the arrow?
19:11:11<!Zapper> Loriel, the arrow is probably in your backpack
19:11:14<!Newton> oh, right
19:11:32<!Loriel> It seems reasonable that you cannot shoot arrows directly from the backpack
19:11:54<!Loriel> Ringwaul: if it is inside the bow, i want to switch away from it, not to it!
19:12:04<!Zapper> you would have to swap slot B with the arrows, put the arrows in the bow and swap slot B with the old item again
19:12:04<!Zapper> sounds annoying
19:12:11<!Newton> but it is reasonable enough that you exchange the quiver you "selected" with a quiver that was before in your backpack
19:12:14< Ringwaul> @Loriel good point
19:13:08< Ringwaul> However, since the arrows are normally in your backpack you must drag them into secondary slot and then use them
19:13:23< Ringwaul> swapping out your shovel or something
19:13:28<!Loriel> You tend to have both hands free for the purposes of regular archery anyway :>
19:13:28< Ringwaul> That is not very quick at all
19:13:37<!Newton> plus, the "backpack" should be seen more as the clonks "inventory" as in "the clonk has it somewhere" than a real backpack with all the downsides it comes
19:13:49<!Newton> so it could be that the clonk just put all arrows inside that one quiver
19:13:58<!Loriel> I see
19:14:35-!- Randrian [~randrian@der.richard.im.euirc.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
19:15:03<!Newton> the "backpack" is - gameplaywise - just a way to order the items you got
19:15:17<!Newton> thats why the contents of the backpack should actually be displayed in the hud too
19:15:20-!- Luchs is now known as Luchs^away
19:15:22<!Maikel> We might also want to generate some user feedback on the controls after the first release
19:15:23< Ringwaul> I think I would favour the usage of alt+click for secondary use, as suggested
19:15:25<!Newton> when i (or someone else) gets to it
19:15:47<!Loriel> How about, when trying to swap the arrows from the backpack with the bow, you instead swap the arrows with the bow's contents?
19:16:26<!Newton> what?
19:16:34<!Zapper> Loriel, I dont find that very consistent :<
19:16:35<!Newton> ah
19:16:44<!Loriel> I guess it is not
19:16:46<!Newton> huh, that wouldnt be very consistent
19:16:47< Ringwaul> hmm
19:17:24<!Newton> so at this point of discussion, i see two possible ways to implement this
19:18:14<!Newton> 1. One button that calls just Activate() or something on press
19:18:52<!Newton> 2. Modificator+Mouse button works like without modificator only that it calls ControlUseAlt*
19:19:12<!Newton> for two, we got at least this problem:
19:19:27<!Newton> what happens if you press secondary use while using primary use?
19:19:43<!Mimmo_O> ControlUseAbort()
19:19:47<!Loriel> Presumably, ControlUseAlt gets called and the script can decide what to do about it?
19:19:49<!Mimmo_O> and afer that ControlUseAlt()
19:19:53< Ringwaul> on both functions
19:20:02< Ringwaul> Ah, I see
19:20:03<!Newton> it could get both quite complex in the implementation and also in the usage of the interface if two uses at the same time are possible
19:20:17<!Loriel> I think the script should be able to decide whether to abort or whether to do something else
19:20:46<!Zapper> Newton, well, two are needed
19:21:04<!Zapper> (shovel)
19:21:05<!Newton> for earth chunks
19:21:15<!Newton> yes, that's why I find number one better
19:21:25<!Zapper> gotta go now, bye
19:21:25<!Zapper> i like 2
19:21:26<!Zapper> bye!
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19:21:38<!Newton> because none of the objects which we used as an example for why we need this interface only need option one
19:21:51<!Newton> but here is the second problem I see with option 2
19:22:02<!Newton> its just one of consistensy though
19:22:34<!Newton> ControlUseAlt*() would be called for items on Mod+LMB
19:22:38<!Loriel> I am not sure whether I am following anymore
19:22:52<!Newton> while for vehicles, horses and structures, it is called via RMB
19:23:04<!Mimmo_O> okay
19:23:11<!Mimmo_O> ive got tto got about 20 minutes or so
19:23:17<!Newton> Loriel: Where did I loose you?
19:23:32-!- Mimmo_O [~mimmoisgr@euirc-0e121208.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ]
19:23:42<!Loriel> How do we do the digging out chunks of earth thing in option 1. again?
19:24:00<!Loriel> Is the One Button in question some entirely new button?
19:24:18<!Newton> if Activate is called the first time, digging out chunks is activated. If it is pressed a second time, it is deactivated
19:24:32< Ringwaul> a toggle key?
19:24:35<!Loriel> How does that solve arrows, then? :(
19:24:49<!Loriel> Is it just going to rotate the arrows while already aiming?
19:24:50<!Newton> Ringwaul: yes
19:25:09<!Newton> Loriel: it could be Alt@entirely new button
19:25:21<!Loriel> Using Alt as a button and not a modifier then?
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19:25:29< Ringwaul> I think that could frustrate players when they are trying to shoot their magic spell and repeatedly opening the menu
19:25:50< Ringwaul> Because they panicked and forgot to deactivate the toggle
19:26:02<!Newton> Loriel: one activate opens a ringmenu with your arrow types, you select one@arrows
19:26:31<!Newton> Ringwaul: what?
19:26:38< Ringwaul> Oh
19:26:44<!Newton> its not toggle, its jsut called on every release of the button
19:26:54<!Newton> or say, press
19:27:02< Ringwaul> So it only toggles if it has been scripted ti
19:27:03< Ringwaul> to*
19:27:22<!Maikel> Why are vehicles always controlled with RMB?
19:27:24<!Newton> yes
19:27:28< Ringwaul> so, for a magic book it would simply open the menu
19:27:46-!- Compufreak [~compufrea@euirc-5345933e.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
19:27:55<!Newton> Maikel: On vehicles - LMB = ControlUse*(), RMB = ControlUseAlt*()
19:28:13<!Maikel> So they already have secondary use
19:28:23< Ringwaul> But wouldn't a single activate button only affect on of the held items?
19:28:32< Ringwaul> one of the held items*
19:29:11< ck_> For arrow selection something like opening the ring menu with button press, then move the mouse to an item and select the arrow type by releasing the button might be nice
19:29:19< ck_> which probably wouldn't be possible with a single activate button?
19:29:47<!Newton> yes, that wouldnt be possible
19:29:53<!Newton> but the ringmenu doesnt work like this anyway
19:30:18<!Newton> if a ringmenu is open, all the mouse controls are redirected to the menu anyway. So the player can select via click
19:30:52< ck_> we should make the ringmenu fit to the controls we want to have, not the other way around.
19:31:11<!Newton> what do you mean?
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19:31:28<!Newton> when you open a engine-menu via CreateMenu, the menu created also gets the mouse controls
19:31:30< ck_> That "the ringmenu doesn't work like this" is not a good argument
19:31:32<!Newton> thats what i mean
19:32:26<!Newton> you don't select items in the menu created with CreateMenu with the button with which you zufälligerweise created the menu
19:32:37<!Newton> but with the mouse or with the [OK] button
19:32:58<!Newton> so err, are we talking about the same thing
19:33:00<!Newton> +?
19:33:01< ck_> I was talking about the ring menu, not CreateMenu
19:33:13<!Newton> the ring menu will work like a menu
19:33:16<!Newton> even like a modal menu
19:33:23<!Newton> it already does, actually
19:33:29< ck_> that's OK.
19:33:56< ck_> I don't get your point though :)
19:34:17< Ringwaul> I believe ck means that you could select a menu item in the ring simply by holding down the menu button, mousing over it, then letting go
19:34:25<!Newton> yeh, I get your point now
19:35:00< ck_> oh, sorry if that wasn't clear.
19:36:02< Ringwaul> So, to the centre of this discussion
19:36:14< ck_> I only wanted to show a usecase for which just an activation button might not be enough
19:36:38< Ringwaul> Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't option 1 be limited to only the first held object?
19:37:00<!Newton> oh yeah, right
19:37:03<!Newton> didn't think of that
19:37:37<!Newton> hmm
19:38:00<!Newton> okay, back to option two
19:38:14<!Newton> lets say I press down Alt+LMB
19:38:30<!Newton> then i get the callback ControlUseAltStart
19:38:59<!Newton> if I release Alt, will I get ControlUseHolding callbacks then?
19:39:23< Ringwaul> hmm
19:39:41<!Newton> I mean, since both ControlUse and ControlUseAlt use the same main button for holding down, the actually can't be used in a completely random way together and not-together
19:40:04<!Maikel> Yes that would make sense for the shovel, holding the mousebutton and toggling chunks with Alt
19:40:14<!Newton> (plus, I want to note that I don't really like the solution to add another mod+mouse button to the controls)
19:41:03<!Newton> hmm
19:41:07<!Newton> well it could be like this
19:41:18<!Newton> like Ringwaul proposed
19:41:51<!Newton> the ControlUse* callbacks are all normally executed, only if the ALT button is pressed or not at the very moment is given as a parameter
19:42:31< ck_> so if I press a mouse button and press alter later I do get another ControlUseStart?
19:42:38< ck_> -alter+alt
19:42:38<!Newton> so if the alt button is pressed at the start, one can do different things (either launch a menu or start aiming)
19:42:52<!Newton> and if the alt is pressed later during aim, nothing could be done
19:43:09<!Newton> for shovels, earth chunks are just only digged out during alt down
19:43:12< ck_> how do I differentiante whether it's pressed at the start or later?
19:43:40<!Newton> we have different calls
19:43:45<!Newton> ControlUseStart
19:43:47<!Newton> ControlUse
19:43:48< ck_> hm, so if alt is pressed before mouse click there is only one ControlUseStart call?
19:43:52< ck_> Otherwise two?
19:43:55<!Newton> ControlUseHolding and ControlUseStop
19:44:08< Ringwaul> Hm?
19:44:11< Ringwaul> @ck
19:44:19<!Newton> I can't follow you either
19:44:28<!Newton> do you know how the interface looks now?
19:44:41< Ringwaul> Oh, I see what you mean
19:44:43< ck_> either with alt=true or with alt=false and then again with alt=true
19:45:11<!Newton> ?
19:45:13<!Maikel> You could also pass alt as a fourth parameter to all ControlUse functions
19:45:15< Ringwaul> Well, in every ControlUse*() function, there would be an alt parameter
19:45:32<!Newton> Maikel, Ringwaul: Thats what I mean
19:45:56< Ringwaul> So if the clonk hits alt during control use holding, the clonk will dig out earth chunks
19:46:03< ck_> when exactly will ControlUseStart be called? When clicking the mouse button or when clicking alt or both?
19:46:09< Ringwaul> not start another controlusestart
19:46:25<!Newton> ah, you mean that
19:46:37<!Newton> when the mouse button is clicked
19:47:01< ck_> What if alt is pressed after the mouse button was clicked (but before it's released?)
19:47:10<!Maikel> it will be called once, if you have press alt, bool alt == true will be passed as a parameter
19:47:17< Ringwaul> then alt gets passed to controluseholding
19:47:54< ck_> OK
19:48:11< Ringwaul> However, I see some complications with this
19:48:13<!Newton> except ControlUseHolding will never be called
19:48:22<!Newton> because HoldingEnabled is off
19:48:35< Ringwaul> heh
19:48:39<!Newton> but then it is obviously not needed
19:48:46< ck_> Yeah, that's okay I think
19:49:18< ck_> it makes it a bit inconvenient to use alt as a toggle but maybe that's OJK
19:49:20< Ringwaul> What if the player hits alt, mouseclick, releases alt, then releases mouse click
19:49:20< ck_> -J
19:49:37<!Maikel> ctrl is still free
19:49:46< Ringwaul> That would pass alt to controlusestart, but not controlusestop
19:49:56< ck_> Ringwaul: Anything wrong with that?
19:50:14<!CoN^Uni> uah
19:50:29< Ringwaul> For instance, opening the menu and firing spell accidentally
19:50:40< Ringwaul> because the stop was not 'alt'
19:50:43<!Newton> Clonkonaut ist erwacht
19:51:22< ck_> Ringwaul: If the magic selector doesn't want that behaviour it can remember the alt state during ControlUseStart
19:51:35< Ringwaul> Oh!
19:51:35< Ringwaul> Indeed
19:52:43-!- Mimmo_O [~mimmoisgr@euirc-48e7a896.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
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19:52:47<!Newton> OK I am writing it down like this
19:53:05<!Newton> next topic
19:53:07<!Mimmo_O> re
19:53:56<!Mimmo_O> what happened? did you finish secondary use? have you finished another topic already?
19:54:05<!Newton> <Mimmo_O> 1.) Make a more concrete concept for what tutorials we need and what the content should be
19:54:11< Ringwaul> we just finished discussing secondary use
19:54:27<!Mimmo_O> i got a good idea about the tutorials
19:54:44<!Mimmo_O> so you have only one scenario, and in the beginning, there is a menu in which you can choose your lesson
19:55:04< ck_> how is that different from many scenarios?
19:55:08<!Newton> with landscapesections and all I suppose?
19:55:17<!Mimmo_O> could be an option
19:55:28<!Mimmo_O> ck_: you only have to load once
19:55:29< Ringwaul> That could be quite handy
19:55:46<!Newton> I see no other option if you want to put it into one scenario
19:55:54<!Newton> but I don't see a reason for it
19:56:11<!Mimmo_O> as said, its just an idea
19:56:49<!Newton> ok, noted
19:57:06<!Newton> well, I will give a quick introduction into that topic
19:57:08< Ringwaul> I think the progressive tutorial that lead you through it was good
19:58:02<!Sven2> Mimmo: Why?
19:58:11<!Sven2> That's a lot more difficult than just having several scenarios
19:58:46<!Maikel> Furthermore we have the option to directly go to the next scenario after completing one, right?
19:58:47<!Mimmo_O> why is it? after youve finished the lesson, you just choose the next lesson or another lesson you like to play
19:58:56<!Sven2> Yes, we do
19:58:59<!Mimmo_O> oh
19:59:01<!Mimmo_O> if we have that
19:59:07<!Mimmo_O> than we could of course use that.
19:59:08<!Newton> I imagine that there is one starting tutorial which explains the basics of (open)clonk in controls. Moving, jumping, climbing, hangling, throwing (rocks)  plus crew selection
19:59:14< Ringwaul> A newbie will be confused as to what lessons he should do or has already done
19:59:29<!Sven2> Well, the "continue game" button can be transformed into a "next mission" button
19:59:34<!Sven2> Which I believe was done for the CR tutorials
19:59:47<!Newton> perhaps still in the same tutorial or the next one, the basic use and the backpack is explained
19:59:50< Ringwaul> And will probably want to play the "Kill that with a gun" tutorial before basic controls
20:00:06<!Newton> and after that tutorial, the different frequently used tools and weapons are explained each
20:00:08<!CoN^Uni> 19:53:07 <!Newton> Clonkonaut ist erwacht <- not really ;)
20:00:12<!Newton> e.g. the Targets scenario would be one
20:00:17<!Mimmo_O> i think we should also make the later lessons like single scenarios
20:00:20<!Mimmo_O> with some hints
20:00:28<!Newton> Clonkonaut: you seemed like it@uah
20:00:41<!Mimmo_O> for example you need to build a windmill because of that reason blabla
20:00:50< Ringwaul> Hmm
20:01:05< Ringwaul> I think all aspects of the game shouldn't be explained in the tutorial
20:01:38< Ringwaul> Otherwise there is no discovery when they start the game after the tutorial
20:01:51< Ringwaul> For instance, we could cover the bow, but not the musket
20:02:00<!Newton> I think its a good idea to blend the tutorials slowly into the game
20:02:27< Ringwaul> Indeed
20:03:15<!Newton> -the game + mission-like scenarios
20:03:43< KaiWolf> Mimmo_= im here now :>
20:03:52<!Newton> so, lets get to the concepting
20:03:59<!Newton> the concrete one
20:04:13< KaiWolf> Mimmo_o
20:04:20< KaiWolf> blahh Mimmo_O
20:04:24<!Newton> which tutorial scenarios do we want to have in the release and what will be done in there
20:05:05< KaiWolf> i think a tutorial for the Jar OfWinds would be good.
20:05:11< Ringwaul> A movement tutorial which forces the player to walk, scale, hangle, jump
20:05:20<!Newton> as Sven2 already started to do/sketch the first tutorial scenario, I think he should share how he imagines it
20:05:24<!Newton> Sven?
20:05:29<!Newton> blahh Sven
20:05:38<!Sven2> Actually, I think you shouldn't divide it too much
20:05:44<!Sven2> Movement can be explained in one message
20:05:45<!Sven2> It's on WASD
20:05:50< Ringwaul> haha
20:06:06< KaiWolf> "you must put your fingers on WASD" <--- oO
20:06:09<!Newton> well, stuff like breath, that clonks can hangle and climb...
20:06:13<!Maikel> what is S for? :P
20:06:14<!Sven2> Well, yes
20:06:20<!Newton> I mean, it is self-explanatory
20:06:23< Ringwaul> scaling down
20:06:23<!Sven2> If you remember that old "Skyrace" scenario
20:06:24<!Newton> so have a little parkour
20:06:26< KaiWolf> Yes.
20:06:29<!Sven2> Kind of a similar landscape can be used
20:06:41<!Sven2> First you walk, then you need to scale a bit, then go through water, then hangle...
20:06:47<!CoN^Uni> 20:02:52 <!Newton> Clonkonaut: you seemed like it@uah <- im stuck in a dice game
20:07:01<!Newton> Clonkonaut: ?
20:07:06<!Sven2> It doesn't need much explanation. Once you reach stuff like water, a message can appear telling you to go ahead
20:07:25<!Newton> sky islands seem a bit challenging to me
20:07:36<!Sven2> Was just an example for the landscape
20:07:41<!Sven2> Of course it should be idiot proof
20:07:44< Ringwaul> For the first tutorial, the player should feel safe
20:07:55< KaiWolf> "<c ff0000>Gold! >:D
20:07:55< KaiWolf> "<c ff1100>Gold! >:D
20:07:55< KaiWolf> "<c ff2200>Gold! >:D
20:07:55< KaiWolf> "<c ff3300>Gold! >:D
20:07:55< KaiWolf> "<c ff4400>Gold! >:D
20:07:57< KaiWolf> "<c ff3300>Gold! >:D
20:07:58< KaiWolf> "<c ff5500>Gold! >:D
20:08:00< KaiWolf> "<c ff6600>Gold! >:D
20:08:02< Ringwaul> so he's not going to tumble off an edge trying to first his jumping
20:08:02< KaiWolf> "<c ffaa00>Gold! >:D
20:08:04< KaiWolf> "<c ffbb00>Gold! >:D
20:08:05< Ringwaul> flood
20:08:06< KaiWolf> "<c ffcc00>Gold! >:D
20:08:08< KaiWolf> fuck
20:08:10< KaiWolf> sry
20:08:11-!- KaiWolf was kicked from #openclonk-dev by Newton [Newton]
20:08:11<!Sven2> Gold!
20:08:27<!Newton> oh, he already stopped
20:08:32<!Newton> wtf did he do
20:08:34<!Newton> anyway
20:08:37<!Sven2> Should have used Gold! >:D as a kick message :P
20:09:14<!Sven2> Ringwaul: I don't think most players are that bad. It's much like a JnR after all
20:09:17<!Newton> in whatever situation would he btw have to throw something?
20:09:26<!Newton> without a message telling him to do so
20:09:28<!Sven2> So, I don't think it should be too tedious
20:09:57<!Newton> ah, firestones...@throw
20:10:01<!Maikel> I would also introduce the concept of digging and throwing flints in the first toturial
20:10:14<!Sven2> Yes, that fits quite nicely
20:10:22<!Newton> Is the message box working (again) btw?
20:10:29<!Sven2> I think I fixed it
20:10:38<!Sven2> I still have that tutorial stub...
20:11:01-!- KaiWolf [~Secret@euirc-84fc40b1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
20:11:05< Ringwaul> Also, loam should be covered quite early on too
20:11:07< KaiWolf> Sorry, again.
20:11:07<!Sven2> Yes, it works
20:11:59<!Newton> cool
20:12:03<!Newton> KaiWolf: np
20:12:09< KaiWolf> :)
20:12:27<!Newton> so what else should be covered in the first tutorial
20:12:38<!Sven2> Should be enough imo
20:12:39<!Newton> digging and loam bridges too already?
20:12:44< Ringwaul> I think not too much should be compacted into one
20:12:50<!Sven2> Movement, Shovel, Loam, Flints
20:12:59< Ringwaul> otherwise if the player screws up, he doesn't want to repeat too much
20:13:01< KaiWolf> What's about "Q"?
20:13:14<!Newton> backpack - no, don't think so
20:13:14<!Sven2> IT shouldnt be possible to screw up the first tutorial
20:13:22< Ringwaul> hahaha
20:13:26-!- Luchs^away is now known as Luchs
20:13:29<!Newton> then, are you sure about the loam?
20:13:32<!Sven2> There can be respawn points in case you kill yourself with the flints
20:13:46<!Sven2> Well, Loam and Flints just respawn
20:13:54<!Sven2> Make the shovel so it cannot be thrown
20:13:57< Ringwaul> Also, newbs will probably waste 3-5 pieces of loam before they realize they have to hold the button
20:14:15<!Sven2> Have a relaunch point in case the player kills himself
20:14:24<!Sven2> Like, you have to bridge a lava lake and the player falls into it
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20:14:47< Ringwaul> Loam should probably lose Con value instead of disapearing on controlusestop
20:15:06<!Sven2> I didn't like that idea because it always sucked with crystals in CR
20:15:11< Ringwaul> @sven2 indeed
20:15:13<!Sven2> You ended up with lots of small crystals doing nothing
20:15:16-!- Spell [~spellor@euirc-fc083074.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
20:15:20< Ringwaul> hmm
20:15:35-!- Randrian [~randrian@der.richard.im.euirc.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
20:15:37<!Sven2> Maybe make it so it loses con if you used very little
20:15:37<!Maikel> remove object when con < 30 or something could do the job
20:15:46<!Sven2> I'd say <60
20:15:48< Ringwaul> That's what I was thinking
20:16:38<!Newton> could the first tutorial be themed?
20:16:41< Ringwaul> Ok, that seems in order
20:17:04<!Newton> like OMG your grandfather died, get to his funeral fast!</bad proposal>
20:17:04< Ringwaul> Themed?
20:17:13< Ringwaul> hrm
20:17:20<!Sven2> When we were thinking of CR, matthes proposed to have you follow a butterfly
20:17:21<!Sven2> Not that I liked it :P
20:17:30<!Newton> ooh
20:17:32<!Newton> thats cool!
20:17:36<!Sven2> I think an unfinished CR tutorial had you crash into a valley with a blimp
20:17:44< Ringwaul> Make your grandpa's ghost lead you through a tut
20:17:45<!Sven2> And you just had to get out
20:17:49<!Sven2> So at least it had an intro
20:17:54< Gurkenglas> That was Last Will, wasnt it?
20:17:54<!Newton> and in tutorial 3, "Target practice" you finally get to shoot it, harhar ;-)
20:18:05<!Guenther> (Following butterflies clearly is the logical result of Rage)
20:18:16< Ringwaul> xD
20:19:12<!Newton> ok, second tutorial
20:19:38< KaiWolf> Second Tuorial->"Q"? :)
20:19:39 * Newton takes a look in the PlayerControls.txt to see what has not been covered
20:19:41<!Sven2> Btw: I would need an image of a speaker
20:19:54<!Sven2> Second tutorial would cover items, containers, etc?
20:20:13<!Newton> speaker? For what?
20:20:18<!Newton> *curious*
20:20:18<!Sven2> If we don't have a speaker portrait, I'll just use Newton's forum avatar :P
20:20:27<!Sven2> Well, dialog messages have a portrait to the left
20:20:29< Ringwaul> har har har
20:20:35<!Newton> portrait, hm
20:20:55< KaiWolf> in rage was the portrait a mage, wasn't it?
20:21:06<!Sven2> http://95.33.103.109:18070/Speaker.jpg
20:21:13<!Newton> perhaps rather including an object's graphic than a portrait would be more modern as the portraits will probably cease to persist long term
20:21:14< Ringwaul> I could work on a hi-poly clonk
20:21:17< Ringwaul> it could take a while, though
20:21:18<!Sven2> The mage was in l2pn00b.c4f I believe
20:21:22-!- clonkine [~clonkine@euirc-552f535a.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
20:21:30<!Newton> Clonkonaut proposed something funny
20:22:02< Ringwaul> Funnies?
20:22:05<!Newton> we could mak ephotos exaggerated gestures of ourself
20:22:38<!Newton> like pointing the finger angrily at the camera, the "i have an idea" gesture, :|, :D, O_o etc
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20:23:14< Ringwaul> Hmm
20:23:16< Ringwaul> I'm a bit confused
20:23:45< Ringwaul> For the portraits?
20:24:00<!Newton> for the icon that is shown in messageboxes in tutorials
20:24:06< Ringwaul> heh heh heh
20:24:28<!Newton> but well thats just an idea
20:24:37<!Newton> for now I think we should go for a simple thing
20:24:59<!Sven2> It's OK, the boxes work fine without a portrait
20:25:05<!Sven2> Or with that avatar
20:25:08< Ringwaul> For different parts of the tutorial, the speaker could be the item you're supposed to use
20:25:11<!CoN^Uni> that's a great idea @photos
20:25:14< Ringwaul> ie, shovel/flint/loam
20:25:25<!Newton> I cant access that avatar, Sven
20:25:33<!Newton> The connection has timed out
20:25:41<!Sven2> Mh ye, have to fix the router for that
20:25:44<!Sven2> Don't have the password ATM
20:25:50< clonkine> hey guys
20:25:52<!Sven2> nvm
20:26:02< Ringwaul> 'ello
20:26:07<!Newton> hey clonkine
20:26:29< clonkine> ;)
20:26:47<!Newton> anyway, second tutorial
20:26:50<!Newton> what should be covered
20:26:56<!Newton> KaiWolf mentioned backpack
20:27:05< Ringwaul> Aye, that's good
20:27:09<!Newton> furthermore we have: change crew member
20:27:10< KaiWolf> Juhu :D
20:27:24<!Newton> vehicle control
20:27:35< Ringwaul> Just the lorry for now I guess?
20:28:04<!Newton> hm
20:28:08<!Sven2> Crew, Containers, Items looks like a lot
20:28:09< Ringwaul> Since it is also a container
20:28:17<!Sven2> Would be enough for a round I guess
20:28:20<!Newton> well, the containers will possibly not work in the release yet
20:28:24<!Newton> at least we don't need them to
20:28:40<!Newton> so we can a tutorial about vehicles (and stuff) with containers later
20:28:50< Ringwaul> aye
20:28:54<!Sven2> So it's only Crew+Items?
20:29:01< Ringwaul> we need something else
20:29:02<!Newton> but if we were to include e.g. the catapult or the cannon or the minigun
20:29:09< Ringwaul> ;D
20:29:09<!Newton> which is still realistic
20:29:17<!Newton> since the models are there, the interface is there
20:29:28<!Newton> we could include it
20:29:37< Ringwaul> The catapult will need a texture, of course
20:29:41<!Sven2> So, you could have one Clonk trapped somewhere
20:29:50<!Sven2> A second Clonk would hav eto fetch ammunition and shoot the second Clonk free with a catapult
20:30:01<!Newton> Ringwaul: yeah but the cannon and minigun are already ready, rihgt?
20:30:10< Ringwaul> the mingun has no texture
20:30:15< Ringwaul> I could make one
20:30:19<!Newton> mhm
20:30:20< Ringwaul> 1-2days
20:30:31<!Newton> rather make a logo ;-)
20:30:37< Ringwaul> aight
20:31:10< Ringwaul> So, cannon + catapult, crew and what items exactly?
20:31:31<!Newton> Sven2: good concept. And if we don't have vehicles at the end, the clonk will just rescue the other with dynamite and  perhaps the grappling hook
20:32:17< Ringwaul> sounds good
20:33:02< Ringwaul> @Maikel you scripted the grappling hook, right?
20:33:28<!Maikel> yes
20:33:41<!Sven2> Actually, I also wonder if we need to cover multiple Clonks if no scenario is using them :P
20:33:44< Ringwaul> I think there is one issue I found to work out
20:33:58<!Maikel> only one?
20:34:04<!Newton> Sven2: hehe
20:34:10< Ringwaul> if you launch when in the air and your clonk lands, the grapple will immediately release
20:34:27< Ringwaul> But it's better than anything I've seen in CR :)
20:34:46<!Newton> the kneel-bug
20:34:55<!Newton> told you there was one that we couldn't solve at the ocm
20:34:58<!Maikel> Yes that's probably because the kneel action overrides Hangonto
20:35:10<!Newton> I *really* wonder why
20:35:11<!CoN^Uni> 20:25:02 <!Newton> like pointing the finger angrily at the camera, the "i have an idea" gesture, :|, :D, O_o etc <- http://www.geekologie.com/2009/06/26/iphone.jpg
20:35:14<!CoN^Uni> \o/
20:35:16<!Maikel> But it had nothing to do with controls
20:36:05< Ringwaul> hahaha
20:36:22<!Newton> :D
20:36:28<!Maikel> Also should the clonk switch to hangling, scaling when hitting a wall or ceiling?
20:36:56< Ringwaul> Hrm
20:37:07< Ringwaul> I think that might be difficult when the clonk is holding the rope
20:37:08<!Newton> I'd say only if he releases
20:37:12<!Newton> the rope
20:37:15< Ringwaul> I would agree
20:38:16<!Maikel> releases on clicking the mouse?
20:38:26< Ringwaul> Yep
20:38:44<!Newton> OK so much for tutorial 2
20:38:45< Ringwaul> It works well, at least for scaling
20:38:59< Ringwaul> Heh
20:39:11< Ringwaul> Well, we should cover the grappling hook in tut 2 then
20:39:18< Ringwaul> it's super cool :p
20:39:39<!Newton> and tutorial three is the target practice then?
20:39:50< Ringwaul> Sounds good
20:39:56<!Maikel> yes ranged weapons
20:40:06<!Newton> What has to be changed there?@target practice
20:40:23< Ringwaul> The butterfly flys the wrong direction
20:40:32< Ringwaul> and is the size of a clonk
20:40:47< Ringwaul> though I think it might be too hard to hit if it's smaller
20:41:01<!Newton> IMO the movement + the appearance of the buttlerfly really needs to be improved anyway
20:41:23< ck_> do we need instructions? what about showing one target after the other instead of all simultaneously?
20:41:41<!Newton> why?
20:42:02< Ringwaul> Also, the clonk needs respawning arrows
20:42:06< ck_> to order them by difficulty
20:42:11<!Newton> ok
20:42:44< Ringwaul> Arrows should also dissapear after hitting something to stop arrow floods
20:42:50-!- Luchs is now known as Luchs^away
20:42:57<!Newton> hm the scenario could also be extended to javelins
20:43:08< Ringwaul> :D
20:43:11<!Sven2> Mh, I was missing for the tutorial:
20:43:17<!Sven2> Do we have a large arrow?
20:43:27<!Sven2> Like the one used for the first CR tutorial? To point at something?
20:43:40< Ringwaul> I could make that in about 2 seconds
20:43:43< Ringwaul> :D
20:43:48<!Newton> at the start the clonk only has javelins and has to hit a few targets until he gets to the other area where he gets the bow
20:43:56<!Sven2> It would have to be animated somehow
20:43:58<!Newton> not yet@arrow
20:44:10< ck_> Sven2: If it is a mesh you can animate it in script ;)
20:44:11<!Newton> it needs to be able to point at HUD items too
20:44:14<!Sven2> Either rotate or bounce towards the target location
20:44:21<!Newton> [x] bounce
20:44:38< Ringwaul> I think bouncing at it would be good
20:44:44< Ringwaul> but rotating is fine too I guess
20:44:51<!Sven2> You just don't like rotation because it was used in CR :P
20:45:01<!Sven2> Maybe make the mesh so it can do both
20:45:16<!Newton> hey, how about both
20:45:18< Ringwaul> sounds good
20:45:21<!Newton> doing
20:45:29<!Newton> but like this
20:45:32<!Newton> it bounces
20:45:40<!Newton> and while it is on his height, it turns around
20:45:48< Ringwaul> ballerina arrow?
20:46:00< Ringwaul> har har
20:46:29< Ringwaul> Maybe it could turn around while bouncing
20:46:54<!Newton> or blinking
20:46:58<!Newton> or change the color
20:47:03<!Newton> or all together
20:47:09<!Newton> anyway, I noted it down
20:47:17< Ringwaul> Ok, I think that might make the player barf
20:47:37< Ringwaul> if he stared at it long enough...
20:47:44< ck_> Newton: So are you providing the summary for this meeting? :o
20:47:48<!Newton> anything else for target practice as third tutorial?
20:47:52<!Newton> ck: yes
20:47:55< ck_> Newton: great
20:48:05< Ringwaul> Hmm
20:48:59< Ringwaul> melee weapons?
20:49:21<!Newton> hm
20:49:26< Ringwaul> Fight off a wolf with a sword & shield
20:49:41< Ringwaul> or something along those lines
20:50:21<!Newton> I'd like to postpone that to a point where (all) melee weapons work like they should
20:50:32< Ringwaul> aye
20:51:41<!Newton> ok, TOP done
20:51:43<!Newton> whats next?
20:52:01<!Newton> Set the concrete frame of which objects must be included into the release; set a frame for a feature-stop
20:52:06<!Newton> @TOP
20:52:11<!Newton> yeah well, its getting late
20:52:20<!Newton> nearly two hours already
20:52:44<!Newton> perhaps we should postpone this to later this week?
20:52:52<!Newton> I think we are also only 4 left?
20:52:59<!Newton> me, ck, Ringwaul, S2
20:53:08<!Sven2> Mostly
20:53:08<!Sven2> Gone soon...
20:53:14<!Sven2> I'm still on the first tutorial btw
20:53:23< Ringwaul> Hrm
20:53:23<!Newton> ok, noted
20:53:37<!Sven2> Not that I did anything, but still planning to do it
20:53:39<!Newton> OK which is not a bad mix of engine and content developers/artists though
20:53:41< Ringwaul> Well, I won't be able to next meeting
20:53:46<!Newton> @4 left
20:54:02<!Newton> just a quick vote, who is in for point 2?
20:54:10<!Newton> [x]
20:54:10<!Guenther> (me would like some quick opinions on whether var a=[1,2,3]; var b = a; b[0] = 2; should result in a==[2,2,3] or a==[1,2,3]
20:54:17 * Guenther would like some quick opinions on whether var a=[1,2,3]; var b = a; b[0] = 2; should result in a==[2,2,3] or a==[1,2,3]
20:54:23< Ringwaul> I'm in
20:54:25<!Newton> ok then we do Günthers first
20:54:27 * ck_ as well
20:54:32< Ringwaul> It's only noon in canada
20:54:47<!Sven2> You mean, if = copies the array or just a reference?
20:54:47<!Newton> (I meant late as in "its already 2 hours")
20:54:49< ck_> Guenther: [x] copy semantics, thus a=[1,2,3]
20:55:05-!- CoN^Uni is now known as CoN^off
20:55:11< Ringwaul> ah
20:55:11<!Guenther> Yes. Whether arrays should behave like integers or like objects.
20:55:14<!Sven2> I'm for [x] reference, i.e. a=[2,2,3]
20:55:25<!Newton> Günther: arrays should be copied. It is not obvious that arrays are supposed to be references
20:55:56<!Sven2> I'm for reference mostly because then we could drop reference support from the language
20:56:03<!Newton> and thus just another mean place where bugs are introduced
20:56:05<!Sven2> i.e., & parameters, as you suggested
20:56:17<!Newton> arent any object variables references?
20:57:01<!Guenther> Both behaviours are implemented for other data types, so neither option is really obvious. You have to know the language to know which one is used.
20:57:05<!Sven2> Yes, they are. Point is, right now C4Value can be of a reference type. And Guenther suggested to drop that to simplify things
20:57:25<!Newton> so...
20:57:30<!Sven2> But if reference parameters are dropped and arrays are copied by value, array manipulating functions cannot be implemented
20:57:39<!Newton> var a = CreateObject(...); var b = a;
20:57:42<!Newton> b is what exactly?
20:57:54< ck_> Sven2: Why don't return array manipulating functions the resulting array?
20:57:55<!Guenther> In fact, if you know other languages, you'd guess that arrays have reference semantics (not copying), because that is what for example C and Python do
20:58:22<!Guenther> Array manipulating functions could not be implemented _efficiently_
20:58:26<!Sven2> ck_: That's awkward and will always result in a copy to be made?
20:58:51< ck_> Don't use arrays use copy-on-write?
20:59:00<!Guenther> (Though you could work around that with truly awkward calling conventions, which we should not discuss now)
20:59:05-!- Matthi [~a@clonk-center.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
20:59:14<!Sven2> ck_: Won't help?
20:59:24<!Guenther> They can't if both caller and callee have a reference to the array
20:59:38< ck_> Hm, ok
20:59:51<!Guenther> Anyway, this is implementation specific stuff. I wanted some opinions from the language-user side
21:00:12<!Guenther> Then we can weigh that against implementation considerations.
21:00:19< ck_> whatever it does it should do the same as proplists
21:00:20<!Sven2> Well, it's common in other languages that all nontrivial types are references
21:00:33<!Sven2> ck_: And objects are proplists :P
21:01:14<!Guenther> Proplists should do the same as objects, and objects really obviously must have reference semantics
21:01:22< ck_> well, one could easily argue that the "object" C4Value type is in fact "object pointer", but the proplist C4Value is a "real" proplist ;)
21:01:38<!Sven2> Yes, you wouldn't want any script assignment to duplicate the player Clonk :)
21:01:43<!Guenther> Er, no, just no
21:01:56<!Newton> isnt an array a "trivial" type in c4script - because it is just another var X = ...;
21:02:07<!Guenther> At the moment, it is
21:02:25<!Guenther> The question is, do we want to change that?
21:02:44<!Sven2> var X = CreateArray(); is not so different from var X = CreatePropList()
21:03:02<!Newton> well in my opinion not. But if, arrays, proplists and objects should act the same. Plus it should be noted in the docs.
21:03:06<!Guenther> Yeah, but CreateArray is a largely superflous function
21:03:23<!Sven2> or var X=CreateObject()
21:03:46< ck_> but var x = CreateObject() is somewhat different from var x = [a,b,c];
21:03:51< ck_> notation-wise that is
21:03:57<!Guenther> Newton: The proposal is to make Arrays behave like objects and proplists.
21:03:59<!Sven2> ye, OK
21:04:07<!Sven2> Anyway: This is really only relevant in very few cases
21:04:31< ck_> Oh, so proplist don't use copy semantics currently?
21:05:08<!Guenther> No, because like I said above: I really want proplists to behave like objects.
21:05:41< ck_> well if I can't get you to change that than I think array should do the same for consistency reasons
21:06:14<!Sven2> Mh, back to Newton? What was point 2?
21:06:35<!Sven2> <Newton> just a quick vote, who is in for point 2?
21:06:46<!Maikel> I am there again
21:06:49< ck_> what/when to release and when/how to do feature freeze I guess
21:07:17<!Newton> ok
21:07:28<!Newton> Set the concrete frame of which objects must be included into the release; set a frame for a feature-stop
21:07:47<!Newton> hm how do we do this
21:07:50<!Sven2> We could do a "new feature freeze", i.e. we haven't done all features yet, but we won't add more to the todo list
21:07:56 * Guenther thinks that our first alpha release only really needs one scenario that is fun to play, and that we shouldn't delay in order to make more
21:08:23<!Sven2> Unless e.g. someone has done a complete scenario that one could just add to the release without any further work maybe
21:08:37<!Maikel> So you you want to show of OC's functionality
21:08:39<!Guenther> But we also should test a release a bit, which is work, so we don't want to release too often
21:08:58<!Maikel> you = just
21:09:02<!Sven2> If it's just one scenario, we wouldn't need a tutorial ;)
21:09:23< Ringwaul> Well, we already have windmill defence
21:09:23< ck_> except if that scenario _is_ the tutorial :P
21:09:49< KaiWolf> i guess a tutorial wouldn't be funny.
21:09:50< Ringwaul> we should probably have a good melee, a good parkour, and the windmill scenario
21:10:02<!Sven2> Ye, windmill defence is kinda complete
21:10:20< KaiWolf> we have a good parkour: oc - boomshire
21:10:23<!Guenther> So if we have multiple scenarios almost ready, we should include them in the release process, too
21:10:42<!Newton> Sven2: noo, I want parallax clouds! @windmill is complete
21:10:47<!Sven2> I'd rather say e.g. Maikel's Cavern. Boomshire doesnt feel complete.
21:10:59< Ringwaul> yes, the cavern is great
21:11:11<!Newton> boomshire really needs a dynamic map
21:11:14<!Sven2> I think it has a TODO written into the landscape
21:11:30<!Sven2> Don't think so, Newton. Boomshire has some strictly designed "riddles" doesnt it?
21:11:37<!Maikel> We should enable teaming options without teams.txt enabled
21:11:39<!Newton> ah
21:11:43<!Newton> boomshire, sorry
21:11:48<!Sven2> Yes. Boomshire.
21:11:48<!Newton> I meant boomrace
21:12:13<!Maikel> kamikaze fireworks is also Ok imo
21:12:20<!Sven2> Boomrace I'd actually also call complete. But I don't think the landscape looks "action-packed" enough
21:12:24<!Newton> boomrace == kamikaze fireworks
21:12:37<!Sven2> Something more lava-granite-like would be more fitting, imo
21:12:41< Ringwaul> We should have around 3 parkours perhaps
21:12:52<!Newton> beh
21:12:53< Ringwaul> boomshire and the cavern are both very good
21:13:12< Ringwaul> if boomrace is finished (and boomshire's end) then we're good to go
21:13:15<!Newton> not so much. One "standard" race like cavern is enough for the release, imo
21:13:16<!Sven2> Just replace some of the earth with ashes and replace water with lava and I'm happy
21:13:58<!Maikel> I don't get it why in CR it is possible to enable teams without having a teams.txt and I can't get that to work in OC
21:14:14<!Sven2> Maikel: Only works if MELE is active
21:14:21<!Sven2> Which is probably broken in OC because there is no MELE
21:14:31<!Maikel> I KNEW IT
21:14:51< ck_> Newton: Why not include more than one if they are ~complete
21:14:54<!Sven2> Then why did you ask?
21:15:03<!Sven2> </whoosh>
21:15:13<!Maikel> My gut said that was the reason
21:15:28<!Newton> IMO all the races that we currently have are the same
21:15:40<!Newton> yeah digging a bit, building a bit of loam, well.
21:15:53< Ringwaul> well,boomshire is quite different from boomrace
21:15:54< ck_> I think Cavern, Boomrace and Boomshire are quite different
21:15:56<!Newton> Cavern is a good map and imo erschöpft this genre
21:16:10<!Maikel> yeah because someone wanted to get all those maps?
21:16:16<!Newton> *exhausts
21:16:26<!Sven2> They're fine. Good starting ground to build stuff into.
21:16:37<!Guenther> Newton: A lot of other games have "Build some troops, attack" for every scenario/map, so repetitiveness is not a reason to exclude something, imho
21:16:41<!Sven2> WE just don't have many objects to add to those races yet to make them more different
21:17:06<!Sven2> Wasn't there a "drilling hammer" or something being created?
21:17:11<!Guenther> As long as the landscape is a bit different, it's fine
21:17:12<!Sven2> That would make the mountain-race much more unique
21:17:20<!Newton> <Sven2> They're fine. Good starting ground to build stuff into.
21:17:23< Ringwaul> You mean the pickaxe?
21:17:27<!Sven2> Or pickaxe, yes
21:17:30<!Newton> I am not asking to remove them from the repository
21:17:35<!Sven2> It's to dig through rock, right?
21:17:35<!Newton> but exclude them from the release
21:17:38< Ringwaul> that still needs a bit of work
21:17:59< Ringwaul> but yes, it digs through things just like flints
21:18:00<!Sven2> Guenther: But traditionally, Clonk scenarios are more unique than e.g. RTS game maps
21:18:01<!Maikel> Sven would Goals=MELE be a sufficient workaround?
21:18:07< ck_> Did anybody talk about removeng them from the repository? :o
21:18:08<!Sven2> Maikel: Probably, yes
21:18:18<!Sven2> Why don't you just create a Teams.txt?
21:18:35<!Newton> scenario != map
21:18:46<!Maikel> mh, there were some disadvantages, or?
21:18:56< Ringwaul> Well, players may get tired if they only have 3 maps and a tut to play
21:19:05<!Newton> tired?
21:19:14< Ringwaul> bored
21:19:19<!Guenther> Newton: No, scenario really is just what clonk calls what other games call map
21:19:29<!Sven2> Maikel: Not really. Once you create custom teams you lose the ability to have teams created automatically as players join
21:19:30<!Sven2> i.e., Team 1, Team 2, etc.
21:19:34<!Newton> no, i don't think so, günther
21:19:41<!Sven2> But you don't need to do that. Just write a Teams.txt that has AutoGenerateTeams enabled.
21:19:43<!Newton> its what it used to be in Clonk 4
21:19:49<!Newton> where we had a Maps folder
21:20:08<!Guenther> Which had a bunch of scenarios without a goal, iirc.
21:20:26<!Sven2> I agree with Guenther Clonk "scenario" = Mainstream game "map"
21:20:28<!Guenther> Anyway, let's not discuss about word choices
21:20:36<!Sven2> Might even want to rename that :P
21:20:37<!Newton> yes, so?  A goal makes them magically interesting?
21:21:11< Ringwaul> Freeplay maps without goals are sometimes more fun
21:21:19< Ringwaul> especially when that goal is Mine out X material
21:21:20<!Guenther> No. Theyre still scenarios, and scenarios are still what other games call maps. You can create a starcraft map without a goal just fine, I think
21:21:44<!Sven2> Ringwaul: I disagree here. I never liked maps without goal
21:21:52<!Maikel> me too
21:22:20< Ringwaul> If you have a few mates and decide it to be a melee it's not bad :)
21:22:23<!Guenther> I had tons of fun with Clonk4 or Clonk Planet maps without a goal. I'm not sure whether a goal would have added to the fun ;-)
21:22:35<!Newton> hmm
21:22:45<!Guenther> er, scenarios
21:22:55<!Maikel> hehe
21:22:59<!Sven2> We might need some free play scenarios because we don't have an editor or "round options" ATM
21:23:02< Ringwaul> I think the first release we should remove the buildings
21:23:15<!Guenther> Anyway, I'm all for including scenarios/maps with the same goal and basic gameplay, if they have different landscapes
21:23:28< Ringwaul> There's not much to do in freeplay scenarios for OpenClonk
21:23:35<!Sven2> Yes, true
21:23:47< Ringwaul> once we have all the buildings that will be good
21:23:50<!Newton> hmm
21:23:52<!Newton> err
21:23:56<!Sven2> I'd be with Guenther, except the other race maps aren't that great
21:24:09<!Sven2> So maybe don't include them until we have at least some decoration to make them more unique
21:24:16<!Newton> perhaps we should roll up the topic from the other side
21:24:23<!Newton> first decide what objects we want to have in the game
21:24:27<!Newton> and what not
21:24:31<!Newton> I mean till the release
21:24:36<!Guenther> Yes, quality reasons totally call for exclusion.
21:24:40<!Newton> and based on that decide which scenarios we will have
21:24:41< Ringwaul> sounds good
21:25:18<!Newton> no buildings I heard
21:25:20<!Guenther> I think creating objects on demand for what a scenario needs is more efficient
21:25:23< Ringwaul> Aye
21:25:29<!Sven2> Well, more parkour maps of the style we currently have are certainly not "needed"
21:26:14< Ringwaul> Since there aren't enough buildings, it's silly to have only a couple with are marginally useless
21:26:17<!Newton> I'd also say: no vehicles, except optionally cannon/catapult/gatling if they are done in time (the release shouldnt be postponed by this)
21:26:36< Ringwaul> Agreed
21:26:37<!Newton> Ringwaul: of course the windmills need to stay as decoration... ;-P
21:26:47<!Sven2> If the catapult is optional, what will remain of Tutorial 2?
21:27:02<!Newton> I'll answer you in query
21:27:11< clonkine> do "we" still have tutorials to test?
21:27:26<!Sven2> No, we don't have them yet
21:27:35< clonkine> k
21:27:53< Ringwaul> Alright, so the windmill stays, but steam engine and workshop go?
21:28:08<!Sven2> What's with the Tools Workshop?
21:28:35< Ringwaul> It's a structure mostly for settlement
21:28:44<!Sven2> I never understood that thing, but I think it was one of the first objects I saw in OC. IT still does nothing?
21:29:01<!Newton> yes
21:29:05< Ringwaul> It's supposed to create hammers/axes/shovels etc
21:29:09< Ringwaul> but it doesn't function :(
21:29:10<!Sven2> Nice, then it can be used for decoration ;)
21:29:36< ck_> Can't we just take Objects.c4d as it is? If scenarios don't use it then it's the same as if it weren't included in fact...
21:29:42< ck_> Sven2: Well, one can go inside :)
21:29:59<!Sven2> Well, that can be taken care of
21:30:09<!Newton> I don't see so much of a problem with that either@don't "clean up" the objects.c4d for a release
21:30:14<!Sven2> (I thought most bnuildings were to be used from outside?)
21:30:43< ck_> Sven2: That functionality was from before that has been decided I suppose
21:30:45<!Newton> (at least the tools workshop, it has not even a door because it is an open shed!)
21:30:56<!Sven2> Will also check whether Newton remembered to do proper Find_Layer() checks in his controls...
21:31:06<!Newton> what is Find_Layer?
21:31:13<!Sven2> Thought so :P
21:31:26<!Newton> you introduces that just now, didnt you?
21:31:30<!Newton> *d
21:31:35<!Sven2> No, it's been in CR for years
21:31:38<!Newton> hm
21:31:42<!Sven2> It's a way to disable objects for other objects. You can only use stuff when it's in the same layer.
21:31:46<!Maikel> no that exits undocumented for years :D
21:31:51<!Newton> ok
21:31:58<!Newton> anyway, on to items
21:32:26< Ringwaul> So, no exclusion of unfinished objects? Just not putting them into scnearios?
21:32:42<!Newton> well, what would speak against this?
21:32:53< Ringwaul> hmm
21:32:58< ck_> What's the difference actually?
21:32:58<!Maikel> Nothing fundamental
21:33:02<!Sven2> They should be free of script errors and loading warnings
21:33:14< Ringwaul> @Sven2 Indeed
21:33:16< ck_> Developers can play around with them but that's all
21:33:20<!Sven2> I think that's pretty clear, but maybe it should be mentioned in the todo-lkist
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21:35:32< Ringwaul> So, is that all agreed upon?
21:35:50<!Sven2> What is the scenario list now?
21:36:07<!Newton> bow, musket, javelin, !club, !shield, !sword, shovel, !ropeladder, !pickaxe, !grappler, dynamite box, dynamite, boompack
21:36:08< Ringwaul> Hmm
21:36:13<!Newton> ! = unfinished
21:36:14<!Sven2> Tutorial 1+2, The Cavern, Boomrace, Melee
21:36:14<!Sven2> ?
21:36:19<!Newton> these are the items which should be included imo
21:36:26< ck_> Windmills
21:36:38< Ringwaul> the club isn't finished?
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21:36:53<!Sven2> Tutorial !1+!2, The Cavern, Boomrace, !Melee, Windmills
21:37:03<!Newton> well, graphics-wise but also gameplay-wise - I never managed to do anything with it really
21:37:17<!Sven2> Newton: Jar of Winds?
21:37:21<!Newton> ah yeah
21:37:25<!Sven2> Loam
21:37:35< Ringwaul> All the materials, pretty much
21:37:46< Ringwaul> resources*
21:38:00<!Sven2> Yes. Rocks, Gold, Ice, Earth?, Flints
21:38:09<!Sven2> ,Snow
21:38:22< Ringwaul> They serve mostly no purpose now apart from throwing at someone
21:39:21<!Newton> what about hte floating balloon?
21:39:34<!Newton> I put it under "would be nice but should not delay release"
21:39:47<!Sven2> What kind of scenario would it be used in?
21:40:08<!Sven2> We don't have settlement melees where you would need a balloon to enter the enemy base
21:40:26< Ringwaul> indeed
21:40:31<!Newton> the hammer too
21:40:45<!Sven2> Hammer was not on your list :P
21:40:50< Ringwaul> The great hammer?
21:40:52<!Newton> Sven2: not a balloon as a vehicle
21:41:00<!Newton> yes
21:41:15<!Sven2> I would also love to have trees+dead trees on the list btw. It would be great to have some decoration at least
21:41:31<!Newton> on the necessary list or the nice-to-have-list?
21:42:02< Ringwaul> I'd guess nice to have
21:42:26<!Sven2> Yes, it's hard to argue they are "needed"
21:42:35< Ringwaul> Vegetation would be great, but my attempts at implementing things other than grass failed
21:42:47<!Sven2> Well, grass is something
21:42:58<!Newton> I still they have to be photoshopped from actual photographs
21:43:12<!Sven2> Btw, can you color modulate models?
21:43:22<!Sven2> Like, to make seaweed from grass?
21:43:26<!Maikel> Ringwaul if you want you can make a stalactite ;)
21:43:35< Ringwaul> :)
21:43:35< ck_> Sven2: yes
21:44:05< Ringwaul> @Maikel Do you have the scripts for that?
21:44:07<!Newton> for trees, I imagine we will need several attempts to get to some final graphics / model
21:44:14<!Maikel> I will make it then
21:44:29< ck_> But does grass have to be a model?
21:44:44< Ringwaul> No, it's a sprite
21:45:01< Ringwaul> 3D grass would murder fps
21:46:13<!Maikel> Do we need some wiki list for really minor things like: Parkour goal needs a german translation, cp graphics need to be updated, etc?
21:46:26<!Sven2> We have a bugtracker for that
21:46:34< ck_> Yeah, should go into the bugtracker
21:46:54<!Newton> Sven2: btw I made clouds as decoration - I want to see them with parallaxity :P
21:47:18<!Newton> http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1124791942054106632xTnqUP <= I doubt that rendered seaweed will ever look anything near of what actual seaweed looks like
21:48:38< Ringwaul> well, it doesn't hurt if it looks somewhat realistic
21:48:44< clonkine> hi ck
21:48:57<!Newton> OK do we need other objects working?
21:49:11<!Newton> what about backpack GUI integration
21:49:22<!Newton> backpack showing in the upper left corner
21:49:27< ck_> clonkine: hey
21:49:38< Ringwaul> as well as it being a GUI object
21:49:47<!Newton> use with alt parameter
21:49:53<!Maikel> I would like to have chests functioning more or less, so that a player can grab objects from other locations than the earth.
21:49:54<!Newton> and so on
21:50:10< ck_> how far is the backpack from working well? Do we need it after all?
21:50:13<!Maikel> Also that needs a model and so
21:50:16< Ringwaul> Well, containers aren't fully working afaik
21:50:25< ck_> I mean, need it for the scenarios we chose before
21:50:29<!Newton> we dont have containers
21:50:31<!Newton> other than the chest
21:51:19<!Newton> ck: yeah pretty much for races but also for melees
21:52:17<!Newton> phew but I really am not fit to continue the meeting
21:52:31< Ringwaul> well, we covered a good amount
21:52:35<!Sven2> There is a bugtracker entry for the clouds?
21:52:47< Ringwaul> I don't think there is
21:53:01<!Newton> if you guys can, I'll send the log to the one who continues to make notes
21:53:08<!Newton> its in the forum
21:53:31<!Sven2> Basically, you need parallax particles?
21:53:34<!Sven2> I'll make a bugtracker entry
21:53:42<!Newton> no, parallax objects
21:53:48<!Newton> the particles attach to those
21:54:38<!Sven2> Oh, so it's a bug?
21:54:46< Ringwaul> I can make notes on future topics if that's fine
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21:54:49<!Sven2> Local particle positions don't take parallaxity into account?
21:54:50<!Newton> OK then we do the rest of the points later
21:54:57<!Newton> I post the log into the forum now
21:56:09-!- Randrian_ [~randrian@euirc-e0dfb8b3.83.171.161.47.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
21:57:15<!Newton> http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=8347;msg=PstChange
21:57:23<!Newton> we can also have a meeting later that week
21:57:44<!Newton> I'll do a doodle later also for the new semester but now I need a pause
21:57:58< Ringwaul> That's all for today, then?
21:58:04<!Maikel> Ok, my semester hasn't started yet
21:58:18<!Newton> except you want to continue it. But i am out
21:58:32< Ringwaul> Oh, alright
21:58:35<!Maikel> 3h is enough
21:58:39< Ringwaul> haha
21:59:04<!Sven2>     Cave race
21:59:04<!Sven2>     + done?
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21:59:11<!Sven2> You mean "The Cavern", right?
21:59:38< Ringwaul> I suspect so
21:59:59<!Maikel> changed that
22:00:43<!Sven2> Changed it as well
22:00:49<!Sven2> :P
22:00:51<!Sven2> And added the materials
22:00:53<!Newton> yeah, feel free to edit my post if something is not accurate
22:01:12<!Newton> btw
22:01:16<!Newton> Defend the Windmills(?)  == TGoW
22:01:25< Ringwaul> aye
22:01:26<!Maikel> we need hg for forum posts ;(
22:01:26<!Newton> The guardians of Windmills
22:01:27<!Sven2> I missed the secondary used discussion - what happened to the idea of having the other mouse button do secondary use?
22:01:34<!Sven2> Oh, OK
22:01:50<!Sven2> Like, you hold down right to dig, then left mouse button starts digging out earth
22:01:53< ck_> we still don't have an idea where to possibly get (fullscreen) menu graphics from right?
22:02:01<!Newton> well that only works for the earth chunks
22:02:17<!Sven2> ...which was the problem we initially wanted to solve
22:02:18<!Newton> imagine a magic wand
22:02:20<!Sven2> Where's the problem?
22:02:37<!Sven2> I don't see a magic wand on the todo list
22:02:49< Ringwaul> for future purposes
22:03:00<!Newton> you'd have to start using it (= the magic might already go off at click down) and only then you can activate the secondary function
22:03:14<!Newton> so the downside in general is: you can only use it when you already started to use primary
22:03:24<!Newton> also applies for arrow selection
22:03:46<!Sven2> So we don't use the most obvious solution, which also works for gamepad, because it conflicts with some other object we don't even have?
22:04:03<!Newton> we have the bow
22:05:02<!Sven2> Well, OK
22:05:02< Ringwaul> Also, we'd have to change the control scheme upon next release when we have magic or so
22:05:07< Ringwaul> and that's probably not great for players
22:05:14<!Sven2> I guess one could still redefine it to MouseLeft+MouseRight in the player controls :)
22:05:32<!Sven2> Locally, once the engine supports that
22:05:38<!Newton> anyway, if you feel that this should be discussed over, I suggest we do it next time, I am really gone now
22:05:45<!Sven2> Ye, sure
22:05:49< Ringwaul> seeya
22:05:59<!Sven2> Better to have a solution right now. We should implement it and give it some time.
22:07:17< Ringwaul> Also, I'd just like to say the barrel graphics are terrible :p
22:07:37< Ringwaul> I know they won't be used in this release but it's something to think about for the future
22:08:17<!Sven2> For the startup menu backgrounds, maybe we can just use screenshots of different scenarios
22:08:34<!Sven2> Maybe apply a few photoshop filters to blur it a bit
22:08:46< Ringwaul> hmm
22:09:37< Ringwaul> Probably wouldn't be so great for the title screen
22:10:07<!Sven2> Better than a plain gray background
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22:10:16< Ringwaul> true
22:10:41< Ringwaul> We could take some real life pictures
22:10:43<!Sven2> TGoW blurred to the outside would look OK imo
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22:11:04< Ringwaul> Yeah
22:11:08<!Maikel> No more real life pictures...
22:11:53< Ringwaul> heh heh
22:12:12< Ringwaul> I once got a landscape and GIMP'd a blimp onto it
22:13:10< Ringwaul> Also, should be have some animals like the wipf in the first release
22:13:24< Ringwaul> It's fairly iconic of clonk, after all
22:13:41<!Zapper> They are a good target in a melee weapon tutorial scenario :]
22:13:50< Ringwaul> :O
22:13:53<!Maikel> Hm rather not
22:13:57< Ringwaul> :<
22:14:08<!Maikel> They can walk in the other toturials
22:14:17<!Maikel> o<->u
22:14:38<!Zapper> They could have a target attached to the back!
22:14:45<!Zapper> (attached _on_?)
22:14:52< Ringwaul> :(((((
22:15:00< Ringwaul> Poor wipfs
22:15:16< Ringwaul> So that's why we are always saving the wipfs in Clonk
22:15:22< Ringwaul> so zapper cannot butcher them
22:15:29< Ringwaul> xD
22:15:29< ck_> I don't think animals should be in the first release. Let's concentrate on what we have decided up to now and get that done.
22:15:52< Ringwaul> Hmm, yes
22:16:04< Ringwaul> But we should definately have them in the second release
22:16:34< ck_> I can agree on that
22:18:04< Ringwaul> So, would it be agreed upon that now is the time to stop implementing new objects, and to work to fix & debug clonk?
22:19:06< ck_> yeah, maybe except for some decoration like trees and stuff
22:21:34< Ringwaul> Well, that seems about it if I'm not wrong
22:21:52< Ringwaul> I
22:21:53<!Maikel> Yeah you can go to bed now :P
22:22:00< Ringwaul> haha
22:22:04< Ringwaul> I just had lunch
22:22:23< Ringwaul> I'll add those few notes to newton's post then
22:22:38<!Maikel> ok
22:23:35<!Zapper> In which time zone are you again?
22:23:49< Ringwaul> -8 I believe
22:24:07< Ringwaul> so I'm 9 hours behind you guys
22:24:20<!Zapper> ah, okay
22:27:20<!Guenther> two, at the moment, because of the cursed Sommerzeit/daylight saving
22:27:58<!Guenther> er, ten
22:28:46< Ringwaul> oh, wow
22:30:56<!Loriel> But GMT does DST too, no?
22:30:58<!Loriel> So it evens out?
22:31:25<!Guenther> I'm using ‌UTC, which (of course!) doesn't
22:31:47<!Guenther> And GMT changing for DST would be news to me
22:31:58-!- Luchs^away is now known as Luchs
22:32:13<!Guenther> Also, I know that different parts of the worlds change at different days, for extra fun
22:32:42<!Loriel> Oh, well
22:33:10<!Guenther> It would be entirely possible that Ringwaul changes his clock in a few days and is again only 9 hours away ;-)
22:33:40<!Loriel> Woah, we are indeed GMT+2, I am amazed
22:33:58< Ringwaul> I am completely confused with all that daylight savings time rubbish
22:34:07< Ringwaul> x)
22:34:18< Ringwaul> Did Newton save the IRC log?
22:34:24<!Guenther> That's the sign that it's working as intended
22:35:31< Ringwaul> :O
22:35:43< Ringwaul> oh wait, nevermind
22:39:04< Ringwaul> Since I won't be at the second part of this weeks meeting, I'd like to suggest arranging Todos
22:39:25< Ringwaul> and who plans to do those things
22:40:21-!- Newton [~quassel@euirc-5352c922.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Newton_))]
22:40:27< ck_> Do we have a agreed that there will be a second part? when? :o
22:40:32-!- Newton_ [~quassel@euirc-3a0b5084.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
22:40:36< ck_> Isn't next week's meeting good enough? ;)
22:40:58< Ringwaul> Something like that :S
22:41:16< Ringwaul> Either way, I was only here this week because of easter monday
22:42:40< Ringwaul> So, as a suggestion for next week's meeting, todos like a logo, menugraphics and completing the items should be divided among the devs
22:42:49< Ringwaul> etc.etc.
22:43:37< Ringwaul> Well, I'm going to go to something other than stare at this monitor
22:43:42< Ringwaul> bye :)
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 05 23:01:25 2010