IRCMeeting/20100410

Summary

  • Newly introduced GetAverageTextureColor might desync for 16/32bit color depth; still keep 16bit mode as an option to save VRAM
  • Melee/MicroMelee confusion: Rename MicroMelee to LastManStanding
  • Backpack requires creating object at mouse/gamepad cursor GUI coordinates
  • Control names not synchronized; just assume QWERTY/WASD for tutorial for now

Full Log

17:57:40<!Newton> alright
17:57:52-Newton:#openclonk-dev- meeting, now!
17:57:57-!- Loriel changed the topic of #openclonk-dev to: The OpenClonk development channel | Meeting, now!
17:58:02-!- mode/#openclonk-dev [-o Loriel] by Loriel
17:58:04<!Newton> ^^
17:58:06<!Mimmo_O> omgomg
17:58:09<!Mimmo_O> ye
17:58:17<!Newton> ok, who is taking notes?
17:58:27<!Mimmo_O> what topics are going to occur?
17:58:55<!Newton> ...ok whatever I'll take the notes
17:59:03<!Newton> we still have the topics from last time
17:59:24< Loriel> I do not think I did anything since the last meeting, except for leaking memory when people slice arrays :(
17:59:51<!Newton> no need for a ":(" ^^
18:00:03<!Newton> so, any more topics we should talk about?
18:00:18<!Mimmo_O> nope
18:00:21<!Mimmo_O> okay, meeting is over!
18:00:35<!ck> can we throw out 16 bit color depth?
18:00:36<!Newton> well maybe something pops up during the meeting.
18:00:56< JCaesar> Mimmo_O: Short on time?
18:00:58<!Newton> ?@16bit
18:01:18<!Mimmo_O> nah
18:01:20<!Newton> why should we throw it out if it is already there
18:01:20<!ck> are there still people using it?
18:01:41< JCaesar> Is there a reason to throw it out?
18:01:43<!ck> It might cause desyncs in GetAverageTextureColor()
18:02:23<!Newton> I sometimes use 16bit on games which otherwise don't run so fast. But I don't actually know if it really helps in terms of speed
18:02:31<!ck> Just to feel safe about it. I figure it might not be required anymore.
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18:02:41<!Newton> I guess you are right
18:03:00< Loriel> Would it not be easier to just make GetAverageTextureColor downscale everything to 16bit before averaging?
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18:03:23< JCaesar> Funny. I can't see any difference between 16 and 32 bit mode ingame.
18:03:35<!ck> Loriel: Well, in my eyes removing 16bit colordepth would be easier than that :)
18:03:45< Loriel> I guess
18:04:12<!ck> it would need to downscale the same way textures are downscaled when they are loaded... would just be one more thing that could go wrong
18:04:32<!Newton> I guess if there is no one screaming right now, it's all the same
18:04:33<!ck> OTOH if used only for things that are not sync-relevant (such as particle colors) it doesn't matter anyhow
18:05:01<!ck> However in an ideal it would be impossible to cause a desync via script
18:05:04<!ck> +world
18:05:13<!Newton> btw, the color is saved per texture per material?
18:05:29<!ck> hm?
18:06:02<!Newton> ok forget it - per texture
18:06:09<!ck> not sure what you mean
18:06:17<!ck> Each texture computes an average color when it is loaded
18:06:19-!- BlackMage [~BlackMage@euirc-17fef1da.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout]
18:06:23<!Newton> ok
18:06:54<!Newton> then lets switch to the topic of last meeting
18:06:55<!Newton> 2. Set the concrete frame of which objects must be included into the release; set a frame for a feature-stop
18:07:13<!Newton> we already started this, here is the link: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=8347#pid8347
18:07:51<!Mimmo_O> we need some cool melees.
18:08:01<!Newton> it seems we just stopped on the (collectible) objects
18:08:05<!Isilkor> 18:05 < Loriel> Would it not be easier to just make GetAverageTextureColor downscale everything to 16bit before averaging?  <- can't we load textures in 32 bit, then calculate the average, then downsample if we really need to keep 16 bit color depth?
18:08:15<!Mimmo_O> melees are always popular
18:08:35< JCaesar> I guess there will be enough trash melees...
18:08:47<!Newton> without a base or anything, it will be more like a deathmeath or like a last man standing
18:08:50< JCaesar> (to statisfy normal players.)
18:09:17<!ck> The CTF we played yesterday(?) was quite fun. Would require some more polish though
18:09:28<!Newton> CTF?
18:09:33<!Newton> from whom?
18:09:39<!Mimmo_O> kaiwolf
18:09:54<!Mimmo_O> he made an instant-kill bow and a fast-reusable JOW
18:10:02<!Newton> hm
18:10:11<!Newton> instagib again
18:10:12<!Mimmo_O> it actually was quite funny
18:10:21<!Mimmo_O> but... i dont like insta that much
18:10:53<!Sven2> ck: I'm against removing 16 bit
18:10:58<!Mimmo_O> i think if we had x- and fire-arrows, bowmelee would be much more variable
18:11:21< Loriel> I do not want fancy arrows that make regular arrows redundant :<
18:11:21<!Newton> anyway, lets get back to the objects / object systems before we get to scenarios
18:11:23<!Mimmo_O> and maybe we also get different ammo for the musket: as MM has: poisionous and spreadshot
18:11:45<!Newton> poisionous lead shots... aha
18:11:50<!Sven2> It's deep down in the engine where it doesn't matter much, imo, and it can *really* help if you run out of texture mem
18:12:26<!Newton> well till the fire is reworked, fire arrows can't be reimplemented
18:12:26<!Sven2> Which is actually not so unlikely for a game like Clonk, that kinda lives of having a million different objects to play with
18:12:33<!ck> Sven2: OK.
18:12:38< JCaesar> What if that average value wouldn't be downscaled, but computed with 32 bit textures?
18:12:50<!Sven2> TextureAverageColor is a rather lame excuse :P
18:12:54<!Mimmo_O> we need goals: parcour, melee (maybe lms, dm and so on), sttlement?
18:13:26<!Newton> hrm
18:13:38< JCaesar> Getting settlement points seemed always a bit lame to me. Could anyone imagine a more intelligent settlement goal?
18:13:46<!ck> Well it was not meant to be an excuse but rather a kind of trigger ;)
18:14:06<!Mimmo_O> JCaesar: i also think so
18:14:13<!ck> JCaesar: Would require some code rearrangements I guess
18:14:20<!Newton> Mimmo: Then why are you mentioning it?
18:14:21<!Mimmo_O> the goal should be so build with system, not just as much as possible
18:14:27< Loriel> JCaesar: Building a special object/building that requires lots of resources?
18:14:33<!Mimmo_O> i mentioned it with a "?"
18:14:35<!ck> uhm, didn't we agree on doing settlement after that release?
18:14:44<!Mimmo_O> i dont know.
18:14:57<!Newton> JCaesar, Mimmo: We are taling about goals for the first release now btw, you noticed that right?
18:15:01<!Newton> +k
18:15:07<!Mimmo_O> yeh.
18:15:17<!Mimmo_O> then we need melee and parcour of course
18:15:45<!Newton> we don't want to brainstorm here but to set a frame for what has to be in the release and what then has to be finished till then
18:15:53< JCaesar> par_k_our. 
18:15:58<!Mimmo_O> ahje
18:16:20<!Newton> btw, what should I note down on the 16bit topic now?
18:16:59<!ck> Newton: Keeping it out of the reasons Sven mentioned
18:17:29<!Guenther> The real reason to remove 16 bit is that it is mostly untested
18:17:42<!Guenther> I'm not even sure if the option does anything for OpenGL
18:17:43<!ck> If used carefully that's no problem for the texture average color (as currently implemented)
18:17:44<!Newton> keeping it out = removing it?
18:18:02<!ck> er, -out
18:18:05<!ck> eh
18:18:06<!ck> +out
18:18:13<!Newton> what now
18:18:30< Loriel> -out+for
18:18:30<!ck> You can replace "out of" with "because of" if you want
18:18:31<!ck> :)
18:18:38<!Newton> ok
18:19:26<!Newton> good, lets NOW get to the topic of setting a precise frame for the release. I'll just begin with a short summary of what we said last time:
18:19:39-!- Icewing [~Icewing@euirc-40adb408.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
18:19:43<!Newton> Following inventory objects must be working until the release: 
18:19:44<!Newton>     + bow, musket, javelin, !club, !shield, !sword, shovel,
18:19:44<!Newton>     + !ropeladder, !pickaxe, !grappler, dynamite box, dynamite, boompack, jar of winds,
18:19:44<!Newton>     + materials: rock, gold, ice, snow, loam, firestone
18:19:54<!Guenther> Reducing the 16 bit option to _only_ affect textures might be a nice simplification
18:19:59<!Newton> of which the ones marked with ! are unfinished
18:20:49<!Newton> as optional were mentioned:
18:20:59<!Newton>     + cannon / catapult / gatling gun
18:20:59<!Newton>     + decoration like trees, moss, grass, rocks and ruins, cave paintings... ;-)
18:20:59<!Newton>     + floating balloon, war-hammer
18:21:23<!Newton> oh, I didn' mention the pickaxe, did I?
18:21:40<!ck> you did in the second line
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18:21:46<!Newton> ah, there
18:22:21<!Newton> ok, so thats where we stopped. Bloody hell, it took me 24mins to get to that point
18:22:48<!Newton> mimmo just mentioned parkour goal and melee goal right now
18:22:57<!Mimmo_O> yeh
18:22:59<!Newton> are they not working yet btw?
18:23:04<!ck> parkour goal is done, no?
18:23:43<!Newton> thought so too. To give the checkpoints a better graphic is not so important for the release
18:23:53<!Newton> and melee?
18:24:18<!Mimmo_O> didnt maikel made on?
18:24:21<!Mimmo_O> one
18:24:26<!Newton> yes, he is not here
18:24:28<!Zapper> I still have the king of the hill goal liying around. Without a proper landscape
18:24:38<!ck> I'm also confused by there being both Melee and MicroMelee btw
18:24:48<!Newton> wat is micromelee?
18:25:27<!ck> I'm not exactly sure but we currently have Goals.c4d/Melee.c4d and Rules.c4d/MicroMelee.c4d
18:26:06<!Newton> Melee.c4d looks like the old melee rule from CR - if all others are dead, you won
18:26:07<!Zapper> I still think a goal should only end the game while a rule should do the logic (like the scoreboard/respawns). But I am alone there I guess :(
18:26:34<!Newton> you "still" think?
18:26:46<!ck> Zapper: So that's the reason there are Melee and MicroMelee currently?
18:26:56<!Newton> Did you ever mention that or start a discussion about it in the forum?
18:26:58<!Zapper> I mentioned it once I think, Newton
18:27:03<!Zapper> ck, i have no idea
18:27:06<!Zapper> I did not make them
18:27:30<!Newton> during a meeting?@mention
18:27:44<!Zapper> Could even have been on the CM. I know I talked about it once and was alone with that
18:28:58<!Newton> hmm, micromelee is basically a relaunch script
18:29:36<!Newton> so you can have the melee rule but the clonks respawn X times before they "finally" die
18:29:38<!Zapper>  <Zapper> I still think a goal should only end the game while a rule should do the logic (like the scoreboard/respawns). But I am alone there I guess :( <- the koth goal does a lot of return Goal_Melee->IsFulfilled(); for example and adds just a bit of logic
18:29:55<!Newton> micromelee rule + melee goal = deathmatch
18:30:06<!ck> So maybe micromelee should be renamed?
18:30:25<!Newton> yeah
18:31:03<!ck> maybe call it DeathMatch
18:31:20<!Newton> I am noting down that we at least need parkour and melee as "general" goals plus the micromele rule renamed into relaunches rule or something
18:31:28<!Newton> well its just a relauncher
18:31:40<!Newton> could be used for any other scenarios i guess
18:31:43<!Newton> *read*
18:31:45<!ck> OK
18:31:57<!Newton> 	// Create melee goal if there isn't any.
18:31:58<!Newton> 	if (!ObjectCount(Find_ID(Goal_Melee)))
18:31:58<!Newton> 		CreateObject(Goal_Melee, 0, 0, NO_OWNER);
18:32:00<!Newton> hm well...
18:32:30<!ck> Let's just bring the issue up in the forums and see what Maikel says, I don't think we need to decide upon a name now
18:32:37<!Newton> ok
18:32:41< JCaesar> Isn't MicroMelee last man standing?
18:32:44<!Sven2> The relaunch rule would need a setting of how many relaunches it offers
18:32:59<!ck> It also seems to do Weapon selection on start/relaunch
18:33:06<!Newton> it is defineable in scenario script
18:33:11<!Sven2> Unfortunately, Goal/Rule object settings (e.g. as lobby options) don't exist yet
18:33:32<!Sven2> It would be good if that setting were attached to the rule object somehow
18:33:51<!Newton> hm? no@weapon selection
18:34:26<!ck> Newton: Then what dose func WeaponMenu() in MicroMelee.c4d/Relaunch.c4d?
18:34:50<!Newton> mh, i didnt look at relaunch.c4d yet
18:34:56<!Newton> assumed that its just a respawner container
18:36:13<!Newton> I don't really like the overall structure of how he did it but I can't really say how else I would have done it
18:36:51<!Newton> ...probably as a goal that inherits from melee
18:37:06<!Newton> anyway, we will bring it up on the forum I guess since he is not here anyway
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18:37:21<!ck> Haha, he is :P
18:37:22<!Newton> wenn man vom Teufel spricht
18:37:38<!Maikel> english pls
18:37:39<!Newton> Maikel, let me dump the last ten minutes of this meeting on you
18:38:02<!Maikel> yeah I couldn't make it earlier, had a tennis game
18:39:59< JCaesar> Newton: that's the way I did it. @goal that inherits from melee. But Maikel was a little faster with his. ;)
18:40:06<!Newton> while Maikel reads the log - what about the backpack
18:40:11<!Newton> I mean, it is already working but there are at least two bigger things about it that are unfinished. Question is if to finish these is required for the release in any case
18:40:13<!Newton> those are:
18:41:06<!Maikel> I am done. Since we didn't decide on the whole rule/goal structure I just implemented something
18:41:09<!Newton> 1. display the ring menu as a hud object. Requires engine changes regarding C4D_Gui, parallaxity, transferring mouse position on each button click (or on click of certain buttons) and stuff plus handling of it in the Clonkcontrol code
18:42:01<!Newton> 2. display the contents of the backpack always on the hud grouped around a big backpack icon on the lower left corner
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18:42:59< JCaesar> 2. disturbing, imho.
18:43:04<!Newton> both are not really necessary for the functioning of the backpack but would improve it greatly
18:43:18<!ck> Whether we need it depends on the scenarios we are gonna ship
18:43:20<!Sven2> What's the problem with the display?
18:43:31<!Newton> Sven2: 1 or 2?
18:43:41<!Sven2> 2nd
18:43:54<!Newton> its not a problem, its just not implemented yet
18:44:20<!Sven2> 1st won't be hard to implement. C4D_GUI changes are all in the bugtracker?
18:44:39<!Newton> I'll see to it. most are I think but they are not connected
18:45:02<!Sven2> I think I know what you mean. It's the possibility to have an object in GUI but at game coordinates
18:45:05< JCaesar> I had two alternate suggestions: Add something that behaves like paralax, but paralax to the mouse or tell the engine that a script is sync-inrelevant, and enable a bunch of functions there, eg getting where the mouse is.
18:45:59<!Sven2> Main problem with "GUI but at game coordinates" is: If it's at game coordinates, it has to be in game zoom
18:46:38<!Newton> hmm no, gui coordinates are enough
18:46:50<!Sven2> Well, that should be easy to do
18:47:03<!Sven2> You mean the "opening menu at current mouse position", right?
18:47:06<!Newton> if the ringmenu sticks to the screen, only gui coordinates are needed
18:47:28<!Newton> but I need to implement another AimGUI and gamepad aim for GUI coordinates I guess
18:47:51<!Newton> since the coordinates from Aim (GameMouse) are useless then - for that menu
18:48:11<!Sven2> IT would be possible to have an alternate control flag. Just like an option to transfer the current mouse pos along with a control, you could transfer the "current cursor (GetCursor()) pos in GUI coordinates"
18:48:13<!Newton> yes, opening at current GUI mouse position
18:48:35<!Sven2> That would enable you to open something in GUI coordinates around the cursor for gamepad
18:48:55<!Sven2> It could, in fact, use the same control mechanism
18:49:24<!Newton> oh right, didnt think of that yet. Indeed, for gamepad control the GUI coordinates of the current cursor need to be transferred instead of the GUI position of the mouse
18:49:35<!Sven2> Yes
18:49:47<!Sven2> Anyway, that should be possible
18:50:06<!Newton> I'd like to declare that feature as necessary for the release
18:50:38<!Newton> while the second one is not so important that the release should have to wait for it to be finished (the display of the backpacks contents in the lower left corner of the screen)
18:50:54<!Newton> OK?
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18:51:11<!Sven2> Yes, I agree it can be low priority
18:51:12<!Maikel> agreed
18:51:17<!Sven2> Although I think it's really not much work to implement
18:51:31<!Sven2> But I guess that's the case for most features, until you really start doing it ;)
18:51:57<!Newton> yeah, guess so too. But the graphic needs to be finished too then
18:52:07<!Newton> without the hud display, we don't need a backpack graphic yet
18:52:47<!Sven2> Another minor thing: Does the tutorial need a goal object and goal graphics?
18:52:49<!Newton> oh mimmo, btw. Why is there always a black circle in the center of a ringmenu?
18:53:12<!Newton> yeah, why not@tutorial goal
18:53:16<!Newton> "follow the butterlfy!"
18:53:32<!Sven2> I never liked that idea :P
18:53:44<!Sven2> Just mentioned it because matthes was so fond of it
18:54:27<!Newton> what do you have against butterlfies??
18:55:01<!Newton> or are you talking about the general idea of having as the goal to follow $something
18:55:41<!Sven2> Following something...maybe. I don't like butterflies
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18:56:18<!Newton> follow the fairy?
18:56:26<!Sven2> Their flying style is awkward. No elegance. Nothing like e.g. an eagle.
18:56:29< JCaesar> Aww. :(
18:56:41<!Sven2> Run away from the Newton :P
18:57:02< Maikel`> The follow a thing is not applicable to toturials where you control multiple clonks
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18:57:29<!Newton> I think Sven it talking about tutorial 1
18:58:14<!Newton> anyway, you are the boss about tutorial 1, if you have another idea do that instead
18:58:35<!Sven2> I guess that should be a hint I should finish it ;)
18:58:53< Maikel`> I can do toturial 2 btw.
18:58:53<!Newton> oh, its not finished yet? I assumed it was...
18:58:54<!Newton> :P
18:58:55<!Sven2> Right now, I'd just make it like "get out of that valley"
18:59:13<!Sven2> Not sure yet how you fell into it, because we have no blimps yet
19:00:19<!Newton> hmm, I think we have all objects that need to be finished?
19:00:35<!Sven2> Nothing was added to the list?
19:00:53<!Newton> I noted down the goals
19:01:00<!ck> except for the backpack stuff
19:01:02<!Sven2> The tutorial pointing jumping and rotating arrow is already on the list?
19:01:03<!Newton> (which seem to be finished)
19:01:08<!Newton> yes
19:01:35<!Sven2> The arrow is finished?
19:01:54<!Newton> no
19:02:04<!Newton> the goals seem to be finished
19:02:11<!Newton> ehm, another thing
19:02:19<!Newton> the chest should also work for the release I guess
19:02:28<!Newton> with a ringmenu
19:02:49<!Newton> thats something for me to do i guess. There were some problems with it
19:02:50< Maikel`> At least somehwat more reasonable than it does now
19:03:21<!Newton> I needed to write an interface for interactable objects anyway
19:03:29<!Sven2> Also, for the tutorial: I guess it should have alternate texts based on whether you play on keyboard or gamepad?
19:03:37<!Newton> (so that the clonk does not need to "grab" the chest but simply interacts with it on space)
19:03:42<!Sven2> I also need to fix the functionality to query assigned keys by script :(
19:03:57<!Newton> there is a function... wait
19:05:09<!Newton> global func PlayerHasVirtualCursor(int plr)
19:05:11<!Newton> yeah well
19:05:26<!Newton> thats the biggest difference between mouse and gamepad
19:06:21<!Newton> ok next
19:06:23<!Sven2> Well, I need to query key names e.g. for Dvorak vs normal key set
19:06:32<!Sven2> The functionality did exist in CR, but will need to be reimplemented for OC
19:06:39<!Newton> mhm
19:07:08<!Sven2> I'm kinda afraid of it, because the used control set isn't even synchronized at the moment. Except by that one script callback.
19:07:28<!Sven2> ...which will probably have to be changed into a real packet instead of CID_Script then
19:07:46<!Newton> hm
19:08:12<!Newton> but i dont think that it must already be there for the release
19:08:17<!Sven2> I can't just say "walk around on WASD" if it's not true for that set :)
19:08:31<!Sven2> Well. You could argue it's not needed because we can't redefine controls at the moment
19:08:51<!Newton> i mean, there is basically only one mouse control set, DVORAK doesnt count. Because only someone who is experienced would change that anyway
19:09:07<!Sven2> I could assume Dvorak users will understand "walk on WASD" in any case
19:09:20<!Newton> thats what i mean
19:09:45<!Sven2> So maybe have that fix on the "not important" list. Still, it needs to be implemented at some point.
19:10:19<!Newton> ah, btw. what about this? http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=457
19:10:29<!Newton> for the release i mean
19:10:56<!Sven2> Well, it would be cool. But I don't think I'll have time for it.
19:11:06<!Newton> ok
19:11:22<!Newton> I posted the stuff about the ringmenu already here - http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=465
19:11:37<!Newton> so I don't know if there is any info missing on what is needed
19:12:08<!Newton> I suggest that you simply add it by replying to it. Now that we talked about it
19:12:59<!Sven2> Will we keep the forum posting as a todo list?
19:13:11<!Sven2> i.e., shall we edit it to include the meeting points? Or will you do>?
19:13:54<!Newton> better you edit it, i don't know whats missing
19:14:29<!Sven2> The arrow :P
19:14:47<!Newton> eh?
19:14:59<!Newton> the arrow is already mentioned
19:15:06<!Newton> but we are not done yet
19:15:17<!Newton> scenarios
19:15:57<!Newton> err say, are we just two left?
19:16:11< Maikel`> No I am there
19:16:41<!Newton> hmm well
19:16:45<!ck> me too
19:17:29<!Sven2>   + Tutorial needs to reflect selected control scheme. Might want to fix GetControlKeyName and properly sync actual, selected key set. For now, let's just differentiate between Mouse+Keyb and Gamepad (HasVirtualCursor).
19:17:47< Maikel`> Did we agree on renaming micromelee to last man standing and making it a goal?
19:18:11< Maikel`> and separate it from the melee goal, which will be used in base melees?
19:18:15<!Newton> so, any picture of which scenarios should be part of the release? Other than GoTW, boomrace & cave 
19:18:42<!Newton> not yet@maikel
19:18:44<!Newton> but we can do that now
19:18:59< Maikel`> I am in favour of that
19:19:32<!ck> I also agree
19:19:38< Maikel`> We will then have goals like: Melee, Last man standing, king of the hill, deathmatch and capture the flag, etc
19:20:10<!Newton> whats deathmatch?
19:20:20< Maikel`> kill 10 clonks to win
19:20:38<!Isilkor> does it work with teams?
19:20:49<!Newton> does it even exist yet?
19:20:53<!Isilkor> oh
19:21:20< Maikel`> I just guessed scenario designers want such goals.
19:21:32< Maikel`> But they should of course all work with teams.
19:22:47<!Newton> I never liked that Hazard drifted so much in that Deathmatch Arena style. It happened because we (only) provided these kind of rules, goals and scenarios. I don't really want to see that happen with OC - I mean that the ppl only build arena-maps
19:23:11<!Newton> but on the other hand, since there is no settlement aspect yet, there is not soo much else one can do
19:23:50<!Sven2> Newton: There were also alien hunt scenarios. But only very basic ones
19:23:51<!Newton> I suggest that the goals for concrete scenarios which we want to include in the release get finished and the others can wait
19:24:29< Maikel`> But we can agree on making them all goals
19:24:32<!Sven2> What was up with that magic test scenario?
19:25:06-!- Mortimer [~Mortimer@euirc-9b529d61.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Mortimer]
19:25:11<!Sven2> By Mimmo I think. I kinda liked it.
19:25:19<!Newton> yeah, it was fun
19:25:29<!Isilkor> Newton: If the players like DM scenarios, why do you want to force them to play other things?
19:25:35<!Newton> but the magic inside that scenario should stay scenario-local
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19:25:57<!Mimmo_O> yes
19:26:00<!Isilkor> I mean, they wouldn't play DM arenas if they hated them
19:26:02<!Sven2> Isilkor: TBH, I liked Alien hunt much more. Just noone built good scenarios for it
19:28:27<!Newton> Isilkor: its not so much forcing or not forcing. Community make the best out of what they get. If you offer them an arena-pack with adequate goals, they will make more arenas. Now imagine that we could have gone another way - e.g. include a settlement aspect or just offer another variety of scenarios - say - races, or more tactical action instead of the deathmatch-action
19:29:01<!Newton> or imagine boni left out the InstaGIB rule
19:29:58<!Newton> the "weapon spawn points" which are now used in almost ALL scenarios were not planned to be that prominent. Originally we wanted more something like a ArsoMorf-gameplay rather than a Quake4 gameplay
19:30:31<!Newton> anyway
19:31:22<!Newton> can we close the meeting by acknowledging that we at least pack maikels general melee with the chests and mimmos magic-scenario inside the release?
19:31:35<!Newton> oh, and best a scenario where the grappling hook comes into action
19:31:43<!Newton> its too much fun to not use it
19:31:59< Maikel`> No way that we implement that boring map
19:32:16<!Newton> you mean that general melee with the chests`?
19:32:20< Maikel`> I would like to make the seconde toturial explaining some tools
19:32:32< Maikel`> Yes
19:32:42< Maikel`> including the grappling bow
19:32:55<!Newton> yeah ok, i meant a standard melee where there are chests and stuff to get weapons from
19:33:17< Maikel`> The grappling bow is also used in the cavern I guess
19:33:24<!Newton> maikel: Look here http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=8347#pid8347
19:33:29<!Newton> under 1. Tutorials
19:33:35<!Newton> the second would include the grappling hook
19:33:51< Maikel`> Yes I know.
19:34:43<!Newton> you meant that you'll do the 2nd tutorial?
19:35:05< Maikel`> Yes
19:35:11<!Newton> ok, noted
19:35:29< Maikel`> but I'd rather wait for Sven to implement the first so that I don't have to do double work
19:35:37<!Newton> Mimmo, you gonna do the magical melee then?
19:35:45<!Mimmo_O> wut
19:36:03<!Mimmo_O> the magic scenario does no more exist
19:36:21<!Mimmo_O> but i surely can do another one
19:36:32<!Newton> what, you deleted it?
19:36:32<!Mimmo_O> i can remove the most of the code
19:36:35<!Mimmo_O> eh
19:36:36<!Mimmo_O> recall
19:36:38<!Mimmo_O> yes i delted it
19:36:48<!Newton> including all the spells?
19:36:53<!Mimmo_O> including all spells
19:37:00<!Newton> and the graphics
19:37:39<!Mimmo_O> including EVERYTHING
19:37:46<!Mimmo_O> except the koncept of the ringmenu
19:37:47<!Newton> oh shit, why would you do that?
19:37:51<!Mimmo_O> which i developed further
19:37:56<!Mimmo_O> maybe its still in the recycle bin
19:38:45<!Mimmo_O> seems it is gone
19:38:47<!Newton> anyway, I'll write it all down later
19:39:06<!Mimmo_O> i though megic will not be implemented?
19:39:41<!Sven2>   + Maikel may do it once the first tutorial is done
19:40:00<!Mimmo_O> Newton
19:40:03<!Mimmo_O> i played it with you
19:40:08<!Mimmo_O> i bet you have it in your networks-folder
19:40:14< Maikel`> sven?
19:40:14<!Sven2> [19:35:50] <Maikel`> The grappling bow is also used in the cavern I guess
19:40:20<!Sven2> Won't that make the Cavern too easy?
19:40:41< Maikel`> I haven't beat your time with it :(
19:40:44< JCaesar> What will be in the tutorials?
19:41:07<!Newton> Mimmo: The "magic" in your scenario is not the magic that will be implemented later
19:41:11<!Newton> but still its fun
19:41:11<!Sven2> Mh, a lot has changed since then
19:41:12<!Sven2> You only have two object slots now
19:41:13<!Newton> that was the point
19:41:34<!Newton> Caeser: see forum
19:41:51<!Mimmo_O> the last change was
19:41:56< Maikel`> My second would  include: grapple, backpack, crew sel, dynamite and rope ladder.
19:41:57<!Mimmo_O> short time before the IDs changed
19:42:14<!Mimmo_O> but i can update it ofc
19:42:20<!Mimmo_O> just give it to me if someone has it
19:42:23<!Sven2> What's with that scenario uploaded to CCAN?
19:42:27<!Sven2> Is it good? Can we use it?
19:42:32<!Mimmo_O> what?
19:42:35< Maikel`> <!Sven2>   + Maikel may do it once the first tutorial is done <- what do you mean with that?
19:42:42<!Sven2> I just added that to the forum posting
19:42:48<!Sven2> You said you could do Tut #2?
19:42:50< Maikel`> I like the concept of that CCAN-scen, but not the map
19:42:52< Maikel`> Yes
19:43:14<!Sven2> So, will Newton branch and sticky that posting?
19:44:33<!Newton> I'll make a new one where I describe all the tasks that need to be done for the release in seperate posts so ppl can easily take up single tasks or take over the lead and ask for help on those single tasks
19:45:08<!Newton> but I'll go play some billard first I think
19:45:18<!Newton> Ill do it when I come back
19:49:32< Maikel`> The ccan-thing is a ctf where you only have the bow, and can block with the jar of winds.
19:50:23<!Sven2> Btw, @Title screens
19:50:35<!Sven2> http://95.33.97.251:18070/Screenshot011.png
19:50:53<!Sven2> I think something like this could work
19:51:00<!Sven2> Maybe even without the blur. Just showing some interesting scenes
19:52:19<!Newton> [x] with blur + interesting scenes
19:52:41<!Sven2> We'd just need  to remember taking some shots while playing each scenario
19:53:29<!Sven2> It's not as cool as some high res model renders, but a billion times better than blank gray screens.
19:53:31<!Sven2> Maybe I'll just commit that one as a jpeg to get the idea rolling?
19:53:56<!Newton> I took a lot during a network game of that round
19:53:58<!Newton> lets see
19:54:26<!Sven2> I manually removed mouse cursor and arrow
19:54:38< Maikel`> We can also start a screenshot thread, we need them anyway for the development progress.
19:55:46<!Newton> good idea
19:55:52<!Newton> cya later