IRCMeeting/20100118

Summary

• Future meetings weekly at 18:00 UTC (19:00 CET, 13:00 EST)
  • Rotating moderators
• ck: Mesh rendering on its way
  • animation stack (http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=5302#pid5302)
  • experimental features (perspective rendering)
• Isilkor: Long C4IDs
  • need some polish, are usable
  • namespaces?
• Maikel: Animal AI
• Newton: HUD complete except for some bugs and a few engine features
  • Upcoming: Menus, Gamepad controls
• Blogs
  • "news light"
  • Newton will set one up
• Wiki
  • to contain FAQs regarding OC dev, game
  • clearer structure needed
• Roadmap
  • We want something playable for OCM in April, see gobby log

Full Log

19:11:45<!Mimmo_O> i think newton forgot about the time
19:11:52<!Mimmo_O> or maybe hell join us in 48 minutes
19:11:53<!Isilkor> Well, this meeting is off to a great start
19:12:35<!Isilkor> Which means I'll wrest control from him and just use the agenda he posted on the forums
19:12:49<!Randrian> hmm I am sorry, but I have to join dinner now... I'll join later
19:13:20<!Isilkor> Welcome to the first OpenClonk developer IRC meeting. We're trying to be constructive here, so please don't disrupt the discussion (too much).
19:13:40<!Maikel> Ty :)
19:14:21< Asmageddon> So that eeting was meant to be IRC meeting?
19:14:24<!Isilkor> I'll be providing a short summary of the meeting afterwards.
19:14:44-!- Newton [~Miranda@euirc-93eb52c2.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
19:14:45-!- mode/#openclonk-dev [+ao Newton Newton] by ChanServ
19:14:45<!ck> I also suggest to put the logs online, accessible from the wiki
19:14:45<!Isilkor> Asmageddon: We're doing a short weekly meeting to steer the project in a general direction
19:14:48<!Zapper> yo newton
19:14:55<!Isilkor> As a first, I'm going to assume that the time and place is acceptable for everyone. If there's any problems, please speak up now.
19:15:05<!Isilkor> ck: Can do.
19:15:06<!Newton> hey guys
19:15:16<!Maikel> hi
19:15:27<!Isilkor> Newton: We're just about to start, do you want to take the helm?
19:15:28< Asmageddon> hello!
19:15:28<!Newton> sorry for the lateness
19:15:58<!Newton> is everyone there?
19:16:10<!ck> I'd prefer if we could start about an hour later in future, though 19:00 is also OK if anybody objects
19:16:11<!Zapper> Well, I am
19:16:36<!Isilkor> Randrian will join us later
19:17:01<!Newton> so do we start at 19:00 or 20:00 in the future?
19:17:11<!Mimmo_O> Newton!
19:17:18<!Newton> Isilkor: ok@helm
19:17:30<!Isilkor> I'd prefer 19:00, but I'd be willing to compromise ;)
19:17:34<!Newton> same here
19:17:41<!Maikel> I don't care.
19:17:58<!Maikel> dependent on the length of the meetings.
19:18:14<!Mimmo_O> yeh
19:18:15<!Newton> hm, then lets stick to 19:00 for now
19:18:47<!Newton> do you think we should keep some kind of protocol of the meetings?
19:19:15< Asmageddon> what for?
19:19:16<!ck> I think it's enough to put the IRC logs online, and maybe a short summary
19:19:17< s_m_w> Logs are usually enough for meetings held on IRC
19:19:35<!Mimmo_O> yop
19:19:37<!Newton> but then, we still need someone to do that
19:19:44<!Maikel> I'll
19:19:46<!Isilkor> I'm doing it
19:19:49<!ck> Isilkor volunteered for today..
19:19:50<!Newton> fight for it
19:19:54<!Newton> ok
19:20:09<!Maikel> do>will
19:20:34<!Newton> I think its better if we have any additional TOPs, to mention them now even though we dont have to be that official
19:20:46<!Newton> anybody has something he wants to talk about?
19:21:03<!Mimmo_O> nothing really important
19:21:04< Asmageddon> I have
19:21:07<!Maikel> TOP = Topic?
19:21:12< Asmageddon> But nothing so important
19:21:16<!Newton> Maikel: yes, Agenda point
19:21:18<!Mimmo_O> TagesOrdnungsPunkte
19:21:25<!Newton> oh@TOP
19:21:27<!Newton> so its german
19:21:28<!Newton> anyway
19:21:37<!Newton> Asmageddon?
19:21:47<!Mimmo_O> i know that frm my german lessons :S we need to keep protocol of every hour.
19:21:49< Asmageddon> Wait a moment, I'm eating :P
19:22:05<!Newton> err ok. Then I'll mention my point
19:22:22<!Maikel> Maybe we can end with topics suggested during discussion, and start with the predefined agenda.
19:22:39<!Newton> yes, that would be another option
19:22:56<!Newton> however i fear that later (at point 5), the whole meeting will start to dissolve a little
19:22:59<!Maikel> For the future, just start with your point for now
19:23:31< Asmageddon> Ok, I want lightning system, not neccesarily dynamic, can be precalculated and updated when terrain is modified or light added/removed
19:23:40< Asmageddon> If you want I have example images made in GIMP
19:23:42< Asmageddon> but they are a bit big
19:23:55< Asmageddon> And it will take some time to upload them with my internet
19:24:21<!Newton> Asmageddon: this is more of a feature request and does not belong here. You'd better post that into the forum. We are now talking about more basic concepts
19:24:22< Ape> Make them JPEG and they will be small(?)
19:24:35< Asmageddon> Ok, forget that
19:24:46< Asmageddon> That is not feature request
19:24:49< Asmageddon> It is a suggestion
19:24:56< Asmageddon> it will make OC look WAY better
19:25:07<!Newton> ok
19:25:08<!Newton> anyway
19:25:08< Asmageddon> which can eventually make more people to play OC
19:25:28<!Isilkor> That is fine and all, but in the end it's still a feature request
19:25:32<!Newton> My agenda point: With property lists, effect vars, local vars and script constant callbacks ("IsArrow"), the whole design pattern of which goes where is a bit softened
19:25:47<+Matthi> (Asmageddon: As right as your point may be: please don't forget that currently, there isn't even a GAME one could play)
19:26:13< Asmageddon> ok :/
19:26:15<!Newton> + e.g. Visibility as a property, but not GetXDir
19:26:25<!Newton> I'd like to talk about that later, before point 5 perhaps
19:26:50<!Zapper> and what to talk about now? :o
19:26:57<!Newton> except you would like to postpone that to a later session or rather discuss it in the forum
19:27:22<!Newton> Zapper: what do you mean?
19:27:32<+Matthi> "Where do we start"
19:27:37< Ape> Matthi brought up an important issue. We have to make this game playable as quickly as possible.
19:27:55<!Maikel> That's what this meeting is for.
19:28:14<!ck> For me it's OK to discuss it today I guess. Not sure I have a strong opinion though.
19:28:15<!Newton> hmm, its not optimal that only the devs know of the agenda while the meeting itself is not moderated (=non-devs can talk too)
19:28:31<!Isilkor> Newton: move the agenda to the open forums then
19:28:35<!Isilkor> announcements or something
19:28:49<!Isilkor> or just post it here
19:28:54<!Newton> Ape, Asmageddon: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=328
19:29:04< Ape> Thanks
19:29:48<!Newton> okay, I think the organizational stuff is finished. I propose that next time, we'll just find another moderator, we dont need to define some specific order
19:29:53<!Newton> point 2, status updates
19:30:16<!Newton> lets take the turns from top to down from the nicklist
19:30:19<!Newton> ck?
19:30:31<!ck> I'm busy with the mesh animation stuff
19:31:03<!ck> Turned out to be not as easy as I thought to provide a somewhat general mechanism with an easy-to-use (C4Script) API
19:31:18< Asmageddon> That gobby is a clone of another program like that
19:31:21< Asmageddon> But guess that is unimportant
19:31:23< Asmageddon> sorry :P
19:31:39<!ck> The goal is basically to get the swimming animation correct
19:31:56< Asmageddon> IMO swimming animation is good
19:32:03<!Newton> Asmageddon, please
19:32:04< Asmageddon> a 'bit' strange, but good
19:32:05<!ck> It's displayed incorrect however
19:32:20< Asmageddon> Ok, sorry :(
19:32:42<!ck> I guess I'll end up with something similar to the Stack system I proposed in the forums
19:33:15<!ck> Where each node in the stack can again be a combination of multiple animations
19:33:41<!Newton> the stack system you posted in the forum is not implemented yet?
19:33:43<!ck> Probably this is not the right place to express my thoughts, but I'll add a documentation page once this is working as I want it
19:34:33<!ck> No, it isn't. It partly is on my computer only, but it turned out to be not as easy to use as I'd like it to
19:34:49<!Newton> ok
19:35:16<!ck> And after that there is many more mesh stuff to keep me busy for quite a while ;)
19:36:11<!ck> (like trying out fixed point math or perspective rendering)
19:36:18<!Randrian> re
19:36:23-!- Irssi: #openclonk-dev: Total of 25 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 20 normal]
19:36:28<!ck> Guess that's it from my side
19:36:53<!ck> So I think is it Isilkor's turn then
19:36:56<!Newton> .oO(wow, perspective rendering. Thats a feature I desire highly)
19:37:02<!Maikel> What about some models which use, UV,shaders(what do i know), is that hard to implement?
19:37:37<!ck> Maikel: not sure. I guess it's not hard, but requires some time
19:38:21<!ck> it's still on the agenda, just not with as much as priority as the ones I mentioned above
19:38:31< Ape> What is the point of perspective rendering if all the objects are on the same surface and has not much depth out of it?
19:38:59<!ck> The Clonk looks fine without, so it should be possible to get other (less complex?) model to do the same, right?
19:39:10<!ck> Ape: For ingame pictures basically
19:39:21<!Randrian> well the sprites for CR always were rendert orthogonally
19:39:32<!ck> As displayed for example in the HUD
19:39:46<!Newton> Ape: there has been already a discussion of that in the forum and it turned out that perspective rendering is applicable (and looks good) to a certain limit
19:39:50<!Isilkor> ck: The mesh rendering doesn't actually require fixpoint math, does it?
19:40:02<!Isilkor> It's just graphics anyway, so doesn't need to be in perfect sync
19:40:08<!Randrian> no, but attaching
19:40:14<!Randrian> attaching to bones needs that
19:40:17<!ck> Isilkor: No, but it is desirable to query vertex/bone positions in script
19:40:39<!ck> Randrian also suggested to make use of "ground bones" to aid in synchronizing the mesh animation with the object movement
19:41:11<!ck> That is, move an object according to a specific bone's position in the mesh
19:41:41<!ck> Of course the first step is to find out its impact on performance, and then we can still decide whether it's a good idea or not
19:42:54<!ck> (Another feature would be to mount a clonk correctly on a horse)
19:43:51<!Newton> as long as the bone position cant be queried but only certain meshes attached to it, the math doesnt have to be integer, no?
19:44:04<!Newton> (meshes, not objects)
19:44:30<!ck> Sure, but we might also want to put the Clonk as an object at the correct location
19:45:02<!ck> For collision detection to work correctly
19:45:06<!Newton> ah right, I was thinking of the sword in the hand of the clonk and such
19:45:31<!ck> In that case attaching just meshes should work (and that's even implemented already)
19:45:39<!Maikel> That's quite crucial.
19:46:55<!Newton> hm alright. I got some open items about mesh rendering too, but this doesnt belong here now. Ill get back to that later
19:47:07<!Newton> now, lets switch to Isilkor?
19:47:52<!Isilkor> My patch to implement >4 char C4IDs just needs some more polish, but otherwise seems quite solid
19:48:52<!Isilkor> There's obviously the problem of having optional definitions which would lead to syntax errors if they're used without checking
19:49:17<!Newton> optional defintions?
19:49:46<!ck> I think it's good to access those via C4Id, or a GetDefinition() loop, and to be able to rely on the required definitions to be available
19:49:50<!Isilkor> Stuff that you might want to check for, but isn't always loaded
19:49:54< Ape> Do we have a standard on the ID lenght? Should the names be as long as needed or should we prefer some a fixed lenght (like 4)?
19:49:58<!Maikel> Would that allow for C4IDs with variable length?
19:50:12<!Isilkor> They would allow for C4IDs of arbitrary identifiers
19:50:25<!Isilkor> so, things like OC_Library_Inventory
19:51:23<!Newton> I don't find the forum topic for that and I dont remember if this question has been discussed:
19:51:29<!Newton> are all C4IDs reserved words? In the sense that e.g. the C4ID of the clonk is 'Clonk': var Clonk = GetHiRank(0); Clonk->GetCategory()
19:51:49<!Isilkor> no, they aren't. They're just global constants.
19:52:32<!Newton> so I should not name a variable "Clonk", well but if I do, I can not access the global constant 'Clonk' in the scope of the variable 'Clonk'
19:52:38<!Newton> +?
19:52:55-!- Asmageddon [5570c416@euirc-c30e4972.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
19:52:56<!Isilkor> yes, obviously. If you declare a local variable with the same name, it hides the constant.
19:53:09<!Isilkor> You can access it via C4Id("Clonk") though
19:53:26< Ape> I believe this is the forum topic for this: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=195
19:53:41<!Newton> cool, then thats not an issue. I guess the standard will be to id objects with a big first letter (Clonk), variables are normally named with a small first letter (clonk)
19:54:36<!Maikel> We could also name everything OC_*, but some sort of ID-list in the wiki wouldn't be a bad thing, I guess.
19:55:02<!Isilkor> In the absence of namespaces, we should still name it OC_*, even with an ID list.
19:55:16<!Newton> at least we should agree on some naming scheme as soon as the feature is ~done
19:55:30<!ck> Do we have some C4Script style guidelines somewhere?
19:55:33< Ape> Can't it be ID->Clonk or something like that?
19:56:03<!Zapper> Ape, that looks as if "ID" was an object
19:56:08<!Newton> ck: Clonkonaut started it once: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=4221;hl=style%20guidelines
19:56:35< Ape> Well it could be an object that is used to get the objects for IDs
19:57:09< loriel> I think it should be "Core_" or something rather than OC_, so it indicates where the IDs are from rather than trademarking them.
19:57:31<!Zapper> agreed
19:57:52<!Newton> hmm
19:57:55<!Newton> Core_Clonk?
19:58:03<!Newton> sounds a bit unnecessary
19:58:16<!ck> As unnecessary as OC_Clonk would be...
19:58:21<!Isilkor> Newton: Some kind of namespacing is necessary
19:58:32<!Isilkor> otherwise we'll get collisions
19:59:00< loriel> I am not entirely happy with the "OC_" name because at some point someone is going to want to rename the whole thing like it happened between CP, CE and CR at the least, and then there are all those outdated OC_ prefixes stuck all over the project :)
19:59:06<!Newton> how would the namespaces look?@Syntax
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19:59:20<!Zapper> There are still people who don't like the name "OpenClonk". I'd prefer Core/anything else over OC_
19:59:46< Ape> object.core.flint and object.apepack.megabomb?
19:59:57<!Zapper> I like the C++ style
20:00:06<!Newton> Core::Clonk
20:00:17<!Zapper> I think a point/-> should be reserved for example for stuff with real objects
20:00:21< loriel> On the other hand, a name like "Core" kind of prevents stuff from being split into a separate package at a later point, if that would be desirable.
20:00:23<!Maikel> Whatever types the easiest.
20:00:45<!ck> Well, we don't need to agree on a name right now
20:01:21< loriel> (I was just trying to start an argument about the name, not the syntax. If I understand this right, the _ thing would work right now without messing with the parser.)
20:01:28<!Isilkor> loriel: yes
20:01:43<!Isilkor> but foo::C4ID-> doesn't work anyway, so we can use :: to separate namespaces
20:02:16<!ck> I guess you mean C4ID::foo->? :)
20:02:29<!Isilkor> Uh... maybe ;)
20:02:55<!Newton> lets postpone that discussion of the name of the namespaces (and its syntax) to a later meeting. The feature is not finished yet anyway
20:03:08<!ck> I forum poll might also do it
20:03:18<!ck> once we have a few suggestions
20:03:28<!Maikel> C_
20:03:42<!Mimmo_O> or c.clonk
20:03:44<!Mimmo_O> c.hut
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20:04:09<!Newton> I'd say, let Isilkor do his thing and after the commit, we already have one suggestion (the one of Isilkor) and based on that, we can perhaps discuss it
20:04:11<!Mimmo_O> hallo clonkine
20:04:14< clonkine> hi
20:04:19<!Newton> its nothing we can't change later
20:04:38<!Maikel> Ok, my turn(we need to speed this up)
20:05:42<!Maikel> I tried to C4Script Disasters and some Animals, but got stuck for now because of the animations, and the scenario.txt interface might be changed.
20:05:50<!Newton> (yes, the temptation to start a discussion over the update is very high. I'll try to cut the discussion if it gets too long)
20:06:18<!Newton> the scenario.txt interface might be changed?
20:06:29<!Maikel> Also the with Command() System is somewhat hard to implement, basic AI stuff
20:06:53<!Zapper> AI stuff? like movement in a landscape?
20:06:57<!Zapper> or other AI stuff?
20:07:00<!Maikel> http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=326#pid5330
20:07:15<!Maikel> Well "Call"is only called once
20:07:25<!ck> What's the problem with animations? You mean the models not be loaded entirely?
20:07:30<!Maikel> yes
20:07:34<!ck> OK
20:08:20<!Maikel> So I guess it is nearly impossible to implement something like "Energy" in C4Script
20:08:35<!Zapper> ?
20:08:52<!Zapper> I don't know why you need the Call-Command. For periodic timers?
20:09:26<!Maikel> Ok you could do anything with effects
20:09:39<!Mimmo_O> ill take a shower now. im back in about 20 minutes.
20:09:45<!ck> Can't you just schedule another Call command in your callback?
20:10:19<!Newton> hmm, I am not sure myself what the exact problem is, but to clarify this problem shouldnt be part of the status update
20:10:24<!Newton> lets do that later, shall we?
20:10:30<!Maikel> Yes next.
20:10:40<!Zapper> Mimmo is gone. So, newton?
20:10:45<!Newton> ok
20:11:21<!Newton> the last 2 months or so I have been working on the script side of new controls (together with Sven2)
20:11:34<!Newton> and the hud
20:12:09<!Newton> basically to finish what I wrote in the HUD Konzept: http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=297
20:12:36<!Newton> apart from few bugs and some missing engine features (in the bugtracker), its now done
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20:13:11<!Newton> the weapons-system if one can call it like that, is done, too. Again a few engine features are missing
20:13:42<!Newton> next I wanted to focus on A) Gamepad controls and B) menus
20:13:47<!Sven2> Hey
20:14:01<!Zapper> Also the close combat weapons?
20:14:06<!Zapper> Or just the ranged ones?
20:14:21<!Newton> for B) I have to confess that I can't do so much script side, so I am waiting for - hi Sven2! - Sven2 to do something in that case ;-)
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20:14:51<!Zapper> Or, did you do the object-side (like, real weapons) or the interface in the Clonk for weapons?
20:14:53<!Newton> for A), i wanted to wait how the transfer-contents-with-menus ( B) ) turns out
20:15:14< clonkine> poor Sven2
20:15:19<!Newton> Zapper: if you look at the bow, there is not much of a "system" there, it is not needed either
20:15:44<!Zapper> Otherwise the "weapons system" (aka the templates) for close combat weapons would be what I would do next
20:15:55<!Randrian> well I started to implement a bit the sword and the animation side of it; the strike animation and so
20:15:55<!Newton> The ControlUse* commands are basically enough for weapons. A little procedure-check here, a delay there and done is the weapon script
20:16:49<!Zapper> Randrian, imo we should have it that way that we have one template and the weapons just have to implement some callbacks (like in hazard)
20:16:53<!Newton> Ringwaul actually tried to create such a template in the tradition of hte Hazard-weapons-template, but it didnt turn out to be too useful
20:17:04<!Maikel> Well it get's harder if for example two swords hit each other, or?
20:17:10<!Zapper> for example!
20:17:17<!Newton> Zapper: Have a look at the bow. There is no need for a system
20:17:31<!Randrian> well two swords that shall hit each other will be difficult.
20:17:37<!Randrian> I would pefere a blocking animation.
20:17:52<!Randrian> not just some random "hit" of two swords.
20:18:06<!Newton> but before we dive into some kind of discussion here if a basic object to include from is wise or not, let me just mention one more thing and then Randrian has the word:
20:18:23<!Randrian> ok sorry
20:18:58<!Newton> I created some kind of ammunition system, based on a includable library object named "Stackable" (also posted it in the forum) which is from the concept similar to arrows
20:19:01<!Zapper> Well, Newton. The ideal weaponscript would look like that: func IsAmmunition(obj){return obj->~Isarrow();} func ShootingBehavior(){return STRAIGHT;} fiinished
20:19:35<!Newton> so the ammunition used for weapons and other stuff are actually still objects and also the objects which are shot (as opposed to hazard)
20:20:05<!Newton> I can tell you more abou the details later but for that, you should perhaps read the Bow- and Arrow-scripts first so that we are on the same level
20:20:08<!Newton> Randrian, your turn
20:20:13<!Zapper> I just read the bow script :<
20:20:54<!Randrian> well I have worked on the animations for the clonk.
20:21:16<!Randrian> for further progress it would be good to have ck's new animation system ready.
20:21:25<!Randrian> cause the script interface changes a lot with it.
20:21:39<!Mimmo_O> okay, re
20:22:25<!Randrian> I also think I have to change quite a bit about the rig, cause it isn't perfect for all types of animations yet.
20:22:39<!Randrian> well and all the animations still need some tweaks.
20:23:05<!Randrian> I also have made first steps with meshes attached to the clonk.
20:23:15<!Randrian> for example the clonk holding the sword and striking with it.
20:23:24<!Randrian> or the clonk holding the bow and animing with it.
20:23:42<!Newton> nice
20:23:53<!Randrian> its a bit difficult to get the orientation in Blender right, so the mesh is shown correct ingame
20:24:16<!ck> Let me know if there is something I can do in the engine to help you with that
20:24:32<!Randrian> the problem is, that when the mesh has a rotation in Blender (more precisly, the object of the mesh has a rotation assigned to it)
20:24:49<!Randrian> I think these rotations aren't shown ingame.
20:24:54<!Mimmo_O> ive done almost nothing :s i was just strawing around in the forum and posting smoe ideas, but nothing really special
20:25:14<!ck> Randrian: Would be cool if you can hand me a simple example object
20:25:20<!ck> I might have a look then
20:25:28<!Randrian> yes ok, I can make you an example.
20:25:56<!Randrian> I also got problems latly with exporting the female clonk, cause the animations somehow were wrong.
20:26:08<!Randrian> I don't quit know, if it was caused by Blender.
20:26:42<!Randrian> Blender can assign Armatures to meshes by parenting and also by using a modifier.
20:26:59<!Randrian> the female just had the armature parented, the male had both.
20:27:07<!Randrian> it was a bit strange.
20:27:45<!ck> maybe try whether it's also broken in an independant ogre mesh viewer. If so, make the model available to me and I'll see what I can do :)
20:27:46<!Zapper> As for me, I have not done much lately either. I started with an "animal" (mainly for experimenting with proplists and stuff) and thought I could do the close combat system next
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20:28:30< Randrian_> args internet...
20:28:32< Randrian_> <Randrian> yes ok, I can make you an example.
20:28:36< Randrian_> <Randrian> I also got problems latly with exporting the female clonk, cause the animations somehow were wrong.
20:28:38< Randrian_> <Randrian> I don't quit know, if it was caused by Blender.
20:28:40< Randrian_> <Randrian> Blender can assign Armatures to meshes by parenting and also by using a modifier.
20:28:42< Randrian_> <Randrian> the female just had the armature parented, the male had both.
20:28:44< Randrian_> <Randrian> it was a bit strange.
20:28:46< Randrian_> <Randrian> and I didn't manage to get the orientation of the bow right up till now.
20:29:09<!Newton> [20:28] Zapper: As for me, I have not done much lately either. I started with an "animal" (mainly for experimenting with proplists and stuff) and thought I could do the close combat system next
20:29:09<!Newton> [20:28] ck: maybe try whether it's also broken in an independant ogre mesh viewer. If so, make the model available to me and I'll see what I can do :)
20:29:45<!Mimmo_O> ive done almost nothing :s i was just strawing around in the forum and posting smoe ideas, but nothing certain for OC.
20:30:15< Randrian_> well the close combat system can be difficult, if it isn't done along with the animatiions.
20:30:47<!Newton> I also think that 90% of the close combat is animation-stuff as long as the system itself is not something elaborate
20:30:56< Randrian_> yes.
20:31:24<!Newton> (and with only one button=function available, it might be hard to do something elaborate ;-))
20:31:27<!Mimmo_O> will there be improvements in the close combat system?
20:31:31< Randrian_> well, the system can be more complex with the mouse move. Cliking and moving the mouse up could result in a strike up.
20:31:46<!Newton> yes, that would be possible
20:31:55<!Maikel> Someone else who wants to share what he/she was working on, I think we can end point 2
20:32:05<!Newton> Mimmo: I don't think that we stick in any way to the old system of "automatic fight"
20:32:11<!Zapper> <Newton> (and with only one button=function available, it might be hard to do something elaborate ;-)) <- well, I plan to use the acceleration of the clonk for stuff
20:32:12<!Mimmo_O> good
20:32:14<!Newton> well, there is still Sven2
20:32:16<!Mimmo_O> it was somehow terrible.
20:32:16<!Newton> @point 2
20:32:20<!Zapper> for example
20:32:30<!Maikel> Oh yes, Sry
20:32:36<!Newton> if he is still there
20:33:08-!- Randrian [~randrian@der.richard.im.euirc.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
20:33:09<!Maikel> A sword can also strike differently dependent on where you click relative to the clonk
20:33:12<!Zapper> Sven has no highlighting enabled as far as I know - will be quite hard to get him here :o
20:33:28<!Mimmo_O> hm, Maikel
20:33:30<!Newton> hmm, then perhaps later he returns
20:33:35<!Mimmo_O> that would result in just klicking and clicking
20:33:40<!Zapper> even later? :o
20:33:44<!Mimmo_O> then, suddenly, you stop fighting and accidently throw something away
20:33:53<!Newton> but well, I know what he was working on, so I can sum it up
20:34:04<!Zapper> I think throwing stuff away should _always_ be just on Shift+Click btw
20:34:08<!Zapper> Just to throw that in
20:34:15<!Mimmo_O> yes, same here
20:34:26<!Maikel> No, not for gold and rocks
20:34:47<!Maikel> Everything with ControlUse() { return true;} already does that
20:35:09<!Zapper> Gold and Rocks don't have ControlUse(){return true;}
20:35:19<!Zapper> I think we should have one behaviour everywhere
20:35:28<!Newton> okay, this shouldn't be discussed now
20:35:39<!Newton> I noted it down as something to discuss later
20:35:50<!Maikel> k
20:35:56<!Newton> I'll sum up really short was Sven has been working on well, during silvester
20:36:32<!Newton> The PlrControls are not quite finished yet.  Some features are missing, some features that have been documented already are also missing
20:36:32<!Sven2> Sorry, was afk
20:36:42<!Newton> but as you can see, most of it works...
20:36:48<!Newton> ah well, you have the word
20:36:50<!Sven2> Yes, menus are on the list
20:37:26<!Sven2> Well, I thought about re-implementing controls for classic menus (really just a few bugixes I think) and then allow custom dialogs
20:38:05<!Sven2> Custom dialogs should cover stuff like PeterW mentioned in the forum; the overhead building menus
20:38:50<!Sven2> Anyway, what kind of stuff is really missing in the engine right now?
20:39:10<!Sven2> I don't think it's menus, because those aren't used anywhere yet?
20:39:38<!Newton> how can I use menus if they are not implemented yet? I need non-modal menus ^^
20:40:12<!Sven2> Is that in the bugtracker yet?
20:40:35<!Sven2> I believe it can be done quite easily. Though getting multiple menus per viewport might be difficult
20:40:41<!Newton> the other stuff that is 'really' missing are (from my side) a few single features that are all in the bugtracker
20:40:46<!Sven2> How are you supposed to control them by gamepad if they're not modal?
20:41:12<!Newton> the custom dialog stuff is not in the bugtracker though because I was thinking you have a concept for that
20:41:39<!Newton> Sven2: that is the question@how to control by gamepad
20:41:41<!Sven2> Basically, it's supposed to be a bunch of functions like CreateDialog, AddDialogItem, etc.
20:42:39<!Newton> (what we need is a concept for dialogs that work for mouse controls and non-mouse controls [gamepad] alike. I didnt think of anything yet)
20:42:47<!Sven2> Though I also thought about a different concept to have just CreateDialog(dlg) /UpdateDialog(handle, dlg) /DestroyDialog(handle) and have "dlg" be a proplist that contains all dialog information
20:45:31<!Newton> I am more concerned that a dialog-system that works good for mouse won't work with gamepad. I will start some topic to find how contents-transfer could work with gamepad (e.g. how it works in other console games with inventory and items)
20:45:46<!Newton> otherwise, I think we are done with point 2?
20:46:26<!Maikel> yes
20:46:27<!Sven2> You would need the concept of a "focused" dialog for gamepad control
20:46:55<!Newton> point 3, Website: Blog, Homepage, Wiki
20:46:56<!Sven2> Even if it's not "modal", i.e. you could have seperate controls for dialog and Clonk control if your gamepad permits it
20:47:45<!Mimmo_O> (Sven2, stop)
20:47:53<!Zapper> I still think we can use the forum as a "blog"
20:48:18<!Mimmo_O> i think we should use something like a blog
20:48:19<!ck> Do you mean these blogs that are built in into mwf?
20:48:33<!ck> Like they were enabled in the english forums some time ago?
20:48:37<!Zapper> no, mawic disabled them
20:48:41<!Zapper> or, kicked them out
20:48:46<!ck> oh.
20:48:47<!Zapper> just make a subforum "blogs"
20:48:48<!Newton> yes@kicked them out
20:48:49<!Maikel> About the wiki: That should contain (now and in the future) all faqs regarding OpenClonk development, but for now it should be structured somewhat more clearer.
20:48:54<!Mimmo_O> if someone who is interested in OC comes to the site, he just sees some black/white page with a forum... nooone wants to read through it just to gather some informations
20:48:55<!Zapper> Where would be the difference to any other blog software?
20:49:08<!Newton> err, lets stick to the blog topic a few minutes, Maikel
20:49:38<!Newton> I agree to Mimmo actually. A subforum with forum topics, this is not a blog
20:49:45<!Mimmo_O> its Blog, Homepage, Wiki, not Wiki, blabla :p
20:49:47<!Newton> as much as Announcements is not a blog
20:49:50<!Sven2> If people want to start blogs, they will. Otherwise, they won't. I don't think a forum will change this
20:50:03<!ck> Zapper: Does mwf provide RSS feeds?
20:50:14<!ck> Trackbacks?
20:50:14<!Zapper> Uh, I dont know
20:50:35<!Newton> ck: yes, I tried to enable them a few times but it does only work properly if you have a proper server, not some CGI enabled webspace
20:50:53<!Maikel> Wouldn't be useful to establish that we have enough writers, to have at least one item a week?
20:51:08<!ck> I think the serendipity ones work on my shared hosting account
20:51:15<!Mimmo_O> i think we will come to at least 3 a week
20:51:31<!Newton> ck: can you post your serendipity blog link?
20:51:36<!Mimmo_O> if every developer has acces to write a new entry
20:51:41<!ck> Newton: http://arbur.net/serendipity
20:52:40<!Newton> why is serendipity > wordpress? For our use?
20:52:52<!ck> I didn't say that.
20:53:11<!ck> I just said its RSS feeds work on my (quite limited) webspace account.
20:53:13<!Newton> err, I didnt mean it that way
20:53:28<!ck> It's the only blog system I have experienced with, I can't say anything about wordpress
20:53:29<!Newton> but I want to set up a system and asking you (you in plural) which one to prefer
20:53:57<!Mimmo_O> i have no opinion to that, due to my lack of knowledge about them
20:54:05<!Mimmo_O> i would say "one which is easy to use"
20:54:11<!Sven2> So, this is like a more relaxed "news" column?
20:54:31<!Newton> ck: can one integrate the blog (or e.g. "the newest 3 items of the blog") in the mediawiki or in some otherwise plain HTML file (e.g. the homepage)
20:54:58<!ck> Sven2: kind of... to keep interested partys informed in a structured way
20:55:10<!Newton> Sven2: a developers blog. Clonk.de didnt have this... well perhaps later with ClonkX, a little
20:55:27<!ck> Newton: I think so, with some scripting. My blog is aggregated on planet.gnome.org
20:55:46<!ck> which basically displays recent entries
20:55:49<!Maikel> Then the role of news, would just be to announce new versions and beta-test, etc.
20:56:26<!Newton> what i'd like is that we all have a single login for the blog
20:56:52<!ck> oh, why that?
20:56:56<!Newton> (so that the devs don't need to register in 4 places for the website)
20:57:07<!Newton> already now, with bugtrack, wiki and forum its a bit much, dont you think?
20:57:30<!ck> It might be interesting who wrote a particular blog entry though...
20:57:39<!ck> +to know
20:57:47<!Maikel> Well we can sign it with our names
20:57:51<!Maikel> yes @ newton
20:58:31<!Newton> ok, Ill first install Serendipity and then we can play around with it a little before we finally settle with that
20:58:59<!Newton> next: wiki. Maikel?
20:59:27<!Maikel> About the wiki: That should contain (now and in the future) all faqs regarding OpenClonk development, but for now it should be structured somewhat more clearer.
20:59:40<!Maikel> A bit more structure would already do the job there.
21:00:02<!ck> Do you have something concrete in mind?
21:00:04<!Maikel> code style rules at the right place, etc.
21:00:25<!Maikel> Well there are numerous examples of opensource game sites
21:01:01<!Newton> hm, I dont see your ponit
21:01:04<!Newton> *point
21:01:17<!Maikel> I would separate the page in Getting started(to play clonk), Content development, Engine development
21:01:22<!Newton> the /Project page and everything below seems to be perfectly structured
21:01:38<!Newton> you mean the Home page?
21:02:04<!Maikel> No, for example the coding style stuff is missing
21:02:31<!Newton> hmm, right
21:02:38<!Newton> it was there somewhere though, no?
21:03:11<!Maikel> http://wiki.openclonk.org/w/Style_Guidelines
21:04:26<!Newton> hm anyway. I am not sure if we have to discuss this. The wiki was just grown how the people contributed it. Nobody will cry if you add some links and reorganize some pages
21:04:37<!Maikel> Indeed
21:06:00<!Newton> so, err. Go ahead ;-)
21:06:41<!Newton> Also, the links in the upper navigation are not out of concrete. If you want additional links or something, tell me
21:06:55<!Newton> which leads us to the homepage, I guess
21:07:03<!Maikel> I'd rather go to point 4, and leave that for now( we can discuss it in some weeks)
21:07:08<!Newton> ok
21:07:27<!Newton> goals, yeah
21:07:32-!- Randrian__ [~randrian@euirc-06a781a2.83.171.170.113.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
21:07:37<!Newton> but this requires that everybody is still here, i think
21:07:47<!Newton> motivation check!
21:07:48<!Mimmo_O> .
21:07:48<!Maikel> Yes HL?
21:07:56 * ck 
21:08:00-Mimmo_O:#openclonk-dev- everyone is here!
21:08:14<!Zapper> ill be afk soon
21:08:29<!Sven2> Yes
21:08:30< Randrian__> what is the question? I was just disconnected
21:08:43<!Newton> if all are stil lthere, because we move to point 5
21:08:44<!Newton> Goals
21:08:52< Randrian__> \me is here
21:09:02 * Ape is here
21:09:09<!Newton> Maikel mentioned in the forum, that we need to set reachable goals (and make them public)
21:09:12<!Mimmo_O> *point 4
21:09:13<!Isilkor> You want to go to point 4 if everyone is here, but then rather go to 5?
21:09:17<!Isilkor> I don't quite get it
21:09:24<!Newton> oops
21:09:27<!Newton> sorry, point 4
21:09:34<!Maikel> So I would like to have a somewhat playable game before the OCM in april. That is some melee scenario's where one can use some weapons, flints dynamite, catapult, and test the clonk's controls
21:09:59<!Sven2> Skyrace is playable ;)
21:10:12<!Mimmo_O> i want the catapult to be controllable like the on in CX
21:10:18<!Mimmo_O> with catapulting clonks.
21:10:26<!Mimmo_O> (i already have scripted something like this for CR)
21:10:31<!Newton> that means, focus on melee and race, tools and weapons rather than buildings and such (until the OCM), right?
21:10:48<!Maikel> Yes, but if we provide like 5-10 scenario's (Melee's & Races) we can have our first "release"
21:11:03<!Zapper> I am still eager to build the weapons system :]
21:11:16<!Maikel> Yes newton
21:11:27<!Mimmo_O> imo we need bows, muskets, swords, shields
21:11:29<!Sven2> Concerning Races: I thought about calling them "Parcour" instead
21:11:30<!Mimmo_O> maybe axes
21:11:32<!Maikel> Has anyone something against this plan?
21:11:33<!Sven2> So we'd have a new name :)
21:11:39<!Mimmo_O> sven: good idea
21:11:42<!Zapper> I dont @maikel
21:11:51<!ck> Sounds reasonable. Might be good to be a bit more specific though.
21:11:54<!Mimmo_O> me neither
21:11:57<!Zapper> But we should also do the planned landscape improvements before the first "release"
21:12:03-!- Randrian_ [~randrian@euirc-a663a039.83.171.156.179.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
21:12:08<!Maikel> Yes that's what I'd like to do now
21:12:10<!Zapper> Be it proper hiding of the pixels (as discussed) or the polygon stuff
21:12:22<!Newton> that goal is very reachable, I think. Too bad that this means that we dont do anything with production lines, buildings, mining etc. (until then at least). But the good thing is that we are not dependent on the dialog system up and running -> I can start with gamepad controls
21:12:48<!Newton> what landscape improvements, Zapper?
21:12:53<!Newton> ah
21:13:11<!Zapper> I mean, I zoomed in (to be able to see my Clonks!) and was like ":("
21:13:14<!Maikel> Personally I prefer settling too, but well Melee's are played so much more.
21:13:20<!Sven2> I think, most importantly, the landscape shouldn't be a blurry mess when zoomed in
21:13:30<!Mimmo_O> agreed
21:13:51<!Newton> well, I have been working on the polygon stuff but it is now frozen. It's my bachelors work and needs more time now (needs to be scientific and stuff ;-) )
21:14:05<!ck> This basically requires higher resolved textures, right?
21:14:11<!Newton> I'll probably work on that after I finished gamepad controls and my exams are over
21:14:17<!Sven2> I think PeterW had a simple approach to use a 3x zooming algorithm
21:14:22<!Sven2> (gp3x?)
21:14:27<!Mimmo_O> (textures, i posted a link in the forum for cool ice-textures)
21:14:32<!Mimmo_O> (hahaha, "cool ice textures")
21:15:00<!ck> Sven2: I think the straight-forward way turned out to be too slow performance-wise if I remember correctly
21:15:07-!- JC-weg is now known as JCaesar
21:15:24<!ck> I'm not sure this was the end of the story though
21:15:29<!Sven2> Zooming the 8 bit landscape with some algorithm, then turn texture indices into textures in a shader?
21:17:13<!ck> Is there another way?
21:17:21<!Maikel> Should we start specifying what needs to be done to reach the goal(Etherpad?)
21:17:43<!Newton> mh
21:18:05<!Newton> I guess its clear whats our goal until the last week of march
21:18:26<!Newton> so yeah, I guess we can move to etherpad to do some concepts of what should be inside the "release"
21:18:33< Ape> Aren't we supposed to play with Gobby :D
21:18:47<!Newton> wait a moment
21:18:54<!Maikel> *shameredcheeks* I havn't installed it
21:19:02<!Maikel> afk 2min
21:19:06<!Newton> http://etherpad.com/Clonkpad
21:19:17<!Newton> hmm
21:19:22<!Newton> there is only one document in etherpad?
21:19:32<!ck> Yes, I think so
21:25:33<!Newton> I started a gobby session
21:25:41<!Newton> 92.224.25.239 port 11111 (version 0.4.12 stable)
21:25:43<!Maikel> 4.12?
21:25:46<!Newton> yes
21:25:51<!Maikel> reinstall
21:28:31<!Newton> hm whats that
21:28:38<!Newton> did gobby jsut crash?
21:28:43<!Newton> ah, it was just randrian
21:29:00<!Maikel> How can I see which colour is who?
21:29:27-!- Mortimer [~Martin@euirc-74bf8acf.extern.uni-duisburg-essen.de] has quit [Client exited]
21:29:31<!ck> Maikel: Klick the user list item in the toolbar
21:29:37-!- Randrian_ [~randrian@euirc-1ce9338b.83.171.188.109.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
21:30:11<!Sven2> I cant get into a document...
21:30:53<!ck> touble click an item in the document list, or select one and hit subscribe
21:31:26<!Sven2> Doesnt work
21:31:32<!Sven2> My chat doesnt seem to arrive either
21:32:02-!- Randrian__ [~randrian@euirc-06a781a2.83.171.170.113.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
21:32:08<!Sven2> And I lose connection after a while
21:32:23<!Newton> shit :o
21:34:02<!Sven2> Just changed my color
21:34:14<!Sven2> I can see your chat though
21:34:22<!ck> no idea. Does gobby.0x539.de:6522 work?
21:34:50<!Sven2> I installed the old over the new. Is that a problem?
21:35:35<!Sven2> Where is gobby.0x539.de:6522?
21:35:58<!ck> I can't think of any problems out of my head, but you might try reinstalling it into a clean directory
21:35:58<!Isilkor> newton
21:36:01<!Isilkor> the wiki is broken
21:36:02<!Isilkor> editing pages fails
21:36:21< s_m_w> I cannot get into any documents either. After double clicking, subscribe is greyed out but it still doesn't work
21:36:30<!ck> Use gobby.0x539.de as hostname and 6522 as port. It's another (public) server.
21:37:56<!Sven2> I reinstalled and got in now
21:41:56<!Sven2> Hm. Have to leave for the cinema now
21:43:21<!Maikel> We'll change stuff later I guess
21:43:29<!Maikel> on later occasions.
21:53:18<!Newton> Isilkor: whoa??
21:53:49<!Isilkor> "A database query syntax error has occurred. [...] 1146: Table 'db1144497-wiki.wiki_tag_summary' doesn't exist (localhost)"
21:53:51<!Newton> what page exactly, Isilkor? For me it works
21:53:59<!Newton> hmm
21:54:01<!Isilkor> every page
21:54:19<!Newton> odd, for me it works
21:54:30<!Newton> ill be on that problem as soon as we are done in gobby
21:54:48<!Newton> i hope we can bring it to something substantial
21:55:42-!- Ape [~ape@euirc-7fdc53a9.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client exited]
22:03:59-!- Phantomwipf is now known as Phanto^away
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22:18:07<!Newton> shit
22:18:09<!Newton> gobby crashed
22:18:12<!Newton> someone save it
22:18:58<!ck> hrm
22:18:58<!ck> done
22:19:07<!Newton> can you reopen it?
22:19:09<!Mimmo_O> hab
22:19:24<!Mimmo_O> just reopen
22:19:45<!ck> on 0x539.de only, don't have access to the firewall here
22:20:02<!Newton> meaning you cant host?
22:20:06<!Mimmo_O> Newton, just rehost, ill paste everything
22:20:19<!ck> in that case all colors are lost
22:20:24<!Newton> oh, crashed again
22:20:26<!Newton> I'll reopen
22:20:45<!Newton> if you give me the session file
22:20:57<!Mimmo_O> they will also be lost if you save normally
22:21:16<!Newton> normally no
22:21:18<!Mimmo_O> i could only save the documents
22:21:23<!ck> mom
22:22:12<!Mimmo_O> whatever, i have to go
22:22:28<!Newton> yeah, it took really long
22:22:43<!ck> http://www-ekp.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de/~burgmeier/gobby.obby
22:22:46<!Newton> I want to try to get that meeting to an end too
22:23:23<!Newton> but the gobby session is the last point anyway
22:23:24<!Mimmo_O> if it does not work
22:23:28<!Mimmo_O> http://de.wiki.nosebud.de/paste/xlK44YJo.html
22:23:41<!Newton> because the distribution of work is already in the session
22:23:45<!Newton> reopen
22:24:05<!Mimmo_O> im off now
22:24:12<!Maikel> ok
22:24:18<!Maikel> cu
22:24:23<!Mimmo_O> good night
22:24:26<!ck> cya
22:24:35-!- Mimmo_O [~mimmoisgr@euirc-ae063962.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ]
22:35:46<!Newton> err
22:35:51<!Newton> someone save the session please
22:36:01<!Newton> perhaps its just Randrian pinging out
22:36:38<!ck> it's still running, isn't it?
22:37:10-!- Randrian_ [~randrian@euirc-27f0becc.83.171.182.120.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
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22:44:32<!Newton> this meeting was even longer then I expected
22:44:41<!Newton> I'll summarize the Gobby session
22:45:14<!Maikel> Isolko-r would do the log
22:45:15<!Newton> and try to fix the wiki so that Isilkor can post the summary of the status updates (and point 3) in the wiki
22:45:27<!Newton> isilkor was not in the session
22:45:34<!Maikel> of irc
22:45:46<!ck> I can add the log of the gobby session
22:45:47<!Newton> thats what i said
22:46:21<!Newton> but first ill eat something. after that, wiki.
22:46:39<!Maikel> For next meetings anyone who is willing to contribute should be invited, and we should set up some guidelines to make the meetings shorter
22:48:48-!- stevi is now known as stevi`off
22:48:52<!ck> true. I still hope this was only so long because it was the first one
22:49:14<!ck> Maybe we'll also get some experience in constraining ourselves to the agenda :)
22:49:33<!Maikel> In our dreams maybe :P
22:49:44<!ck> Heh, give us a chance :)
22:49:51<!Newton> phew, by the way
22:50:04-!- Luchs^away is now known as Luchs
22:50:09<!Newton> i find a meeting over IRC a lot more tiresome then in real life
22:50:12<!Newton> but it was 4 hours too
22:50:31-!- Mortimer [~Mortimer@euirc-82816ebb.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
22:51:26<!Maikel> You should do your thesis on teleportation ;)
22:51:48<!ck> we can try video conferencing next time :P
22:55:10<!Maikel> Got to go "The emergence of gravity through holographic scenario" is waiting for me at 9:00
22:55:13<!Maikel> Bye
22:56:51-!- Maikel [~maikeldev@euirc-49e109b6.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Life is too colorful...]
22:59:23<!Newton> ck, can you reproduce isilkors problem?
22:59:41<!ck> Newton: let me check. Just try to edit any page?
23:00:07<!Newton> yes
23:00:23<!Newton> for me, it  works. Thats why im puzzled
23:00:25<!Isilkor> for example http://wiki.openclonk.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=edit
23:00:31<!Isilkor> A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: 
23:00:33<!Isilkor> (SQL query hidden)
23:00:35<!Isilkor> from within function "IndexPager::reallyDoQuery (LogPager)". MySQL returned error "1146: Table 'db1144497-wiki.wiki_tag_summary' doesn't exist (localhost)".
23:00:51<!ck> Hm. Anybody knows my wiki password? %(
23:01:07<!ck> ah
23:01:08<!Newton> ah, right
23:01:16<!ck> yeah, same error
23:01:18<!Newton> for Project, it does not appear
23:01:21<!Newton> but for the homepage
23:01:32<!ck> by clicking Isilkor's link, that is
23:01:52<!ck> I can edit the page though when I navigate properly
23:02:01<!Isilkor> I got there by navigating properly :(
23:02:03<!ck> (I just added "This is a test" at the bottom of the main page)
23:02:27<!ck> ah
23:02:33<!ck> It only occurs for the Main Page for me
23:02:37<!Isilkor> Actually, I get this for History as ell
23:02:38<!ck> But I can edit the Project page for example
23:03:05<!Newton> well, yes the table does not exist
23:03:14<!Newton> the thing is
23:03:32<!Newton> the day before yesterday, i updated to the newest stable mediawiki
23:03:49<!Isilkor> http://wiki.openclonk.org/w/Special:RecentChanges does it too
23:03:51<!Newton> and during upload of the new files, I saw that I already had the newest update, I just forgot to write it down
23:03:55<!Isilkor> so something major is broken I think
23:04:17<!Newton> so I stopped replacing the files during the FTP upload (but not IN one file, after one file)
23:04:33<!Newton> because i assumed i could only have replaced the same files with the same files
23:04:37<!Newton> guess it wasnt the case
23:04:44<!Newton> so what ill do is reinstall the whole thing
23:04:54<!Newton> and the uploading via FTP takes ages
23:05:27-!- Kohlrabi [~Kohlrabi@euirc-621841f3.nosebud.de] has joined #openclonk-dev
23:05:37-!- Randrian__ [~randrian@euirc-be85727b.83.171.153.191.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openclonk-dev
23:07:21<!Newton> during the upload I'll disable the wiki
23:09:32-!- Randrian_ [~randrian@euirc-27f0becc.83.171.182.120.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
23:12:16<!Newton> Zapper: till when are you still online?
23:12:26<!Zapper> till clonkine lets me go
23:12:46<!Newton> we wanted to talk about weapon systems and base objects
23:13:17<!Zapper> uh
23:13:18<!Zapper> mh
23:13:25< clonkine> she won'T
23:14:24<!Zapper> hm
23:14:44<!Zapper> I think I am too tired right now - tomorrow maybe?
23:15:47-!- Icewing [~Icewing@euirc-d575d80d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client exited]
23:15:49<!Newton> ok, maybe
23:19:57-!- s_m_w is now known as smw
23:44:41<!Newton> ck?
23:48:35<!ck> Newton
23:48:46< clonkine> ck, newton?
23:48:49< clonkine> ;)
23:49:08<!Newton> you said during the status update that you are basically trying to get the swimming right
23:49:14<!Newton> with all these stack-changes
23:49:23<!ck> right
23:49:26<!Newton> but what about günthers proposal to just use SetObjDrawTransform?
23:50:03<!Newton> for rotation
23:50:07<!ck> I'd like to avoid SetObjDrawTransform if possible
23:50:16<!ck> But that's not even the point
23:50:33<!ck> The problem is not only with the swimming but with the animation blending
23:50:48<!ck> so the same problem of incorrect blending might happen for other animations as well
23:51:17<!Newton> ah, well then
23:52:01<!Newton> I just think that providing 4 different swimming animations for every direction one seems to be the wrong approach
23:52:12<!Newton> better would be, to be able to set a rotation of the animation
23:52:33<!Newton> because i can really imagine that we want to rotate the clonk while climbing or hangling a little
23:52:39<!Newton> yeah even while running
23:53:05<!Newton> and partly really much while jumping and tumbling
23:53:45<!ck> that can also be done via an animation... i'm not even sure it will look correct when just rotating one animation either
23:53:46<!Newton> having to create animations which are oriented slightly differently seems to be... err not the right way
23:54:22<!Newton> you mean a general "rotate" animation that is combineable with any other animation?
23:55:15<!ck> I had a different one for every possible animation in mind
23:55:26<!ck> Though I'm not sure what makes most sense there from a modelling point of view
23:55:43<!ck> that is, whether there would be a difference in rotation for walking/climbing
23:56:04<!Newton> for walking and climbing... yeah for that you might be right
23:56:21<!Newton> but definitely not for jumping and not for hangling
23:58:07<!ck> Maybe let's just try out both ways and see which one works better
23:58:30<!ck> or try one, and switch if we encounter inherent problems
23:58:56<!ck> But I think these kind of problems can be solved by trying things out and experimenting rather than by thinking too much ;)