IRCMeeting/20100731

19:37:01 <Newton> (of all the people who put their name in doodle) we are complete except ringwaul and clonk-karl
19:37:33 <Maikel> ck might be a little later iirc
19:41:43 <PeterW> Hm, release soon? Bad moment for merging norefs then?
19:44:27 <Guenther> apropos norefs: How are we going to garbage collect cyclic arrays, by the way?
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19:44:49 <PeterW> I guess we're not? :)
19:45:52 <PeterW> As far as I know, there are mainstream languages that get away with it, so why not?
19:48:03 <Guenther> Iirc, leaking cycles was one of the reasons we chose the current semantics
19:48:52 <Guenther> But yeah, writing an article in the documentation will probably suffice
19:49:01 <PeterW> Did we? Doesn't seem that strong a reason to me.
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19:49:36 <PeterW> I mean, in contrast to objects, doing a cyclic array is really something with little practical value
19:49:42 <Guenther> We might want to write a cycle detector as a debugging tool
19:49:59 <Guenther> Yes, but storing objects in arrays and storing arrays in objects is both reasonable
19:50:00 <PeterW> And on top of that, it's also something you really can't to acidentially
19:50:37 <Guenther> so as long as nobody uses proplists which aren't objects, it'll be okay, but well
19:50:43 <PeterW> Proplists are our closest equivalent, aren't they?
19:50:51 <PeterW> Are they garbage-collect at all, btw?
19:50:56 <Guenther> yes.
19:51:15 <PeterW> Standard refcounting, as well, I guess?
19:51:25 <Guenther> so, my argument is somewhat defeated by the fact that I already introduced this leakage problem...
19:51:27 <Guenther> yes
19:51:59 <PeterW> Yeah, well. Arrays is probably not the first place we would run into it...
19:52:07 <Zapper> <Guenther> so as long as nobody uses proplists which aren't objects, it'll be okay, but well <- I already started using proplists as struct-equivalents wherever possible!
19:52:30 <PeterW> And if Perl gets away with it, we should, too
19:52:37 <Guenther> We might want to generalize RemoveObject so that cycles can be broken without zeroing out stuff
19:52:59 <PeterW> Really?
19:52:59 <Guenther> Zapper: Well, make sure that your cyclic structures don't leak ;-)
19:53:26 <PeterW> What would be the semantics if it there wasn't as cycle?
19:53:36 <PeterW> "Zero out all references to this"?
19:53:41 <-- Spell has quit (Client exited)
19:53:53 <PeterW> So it's actually zeroing, but automatic? :)
19:53:56 <Guenther> yes, same as objects
19:54:09 <PeterW> I mean, in case you pick the wrong object, you could still fail do delete everything
19:54:58 <PeterW> Don't know whether I'd actually suggest that as a good solution
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19:55:19 --> Gurkenglas (~Gurkengla@188.106.177.euirc-de247f0c) has joined #openclonk-dev
19:55:40 <Gurkenglas> final dev meeting now? :o
19:55:48 <PeterW> (Even if it happens to be easy to do using existing C4Object machinery)
19:55:56 <Zapper> No, we still have about four minutes to fix every known bug, Gurkenglas
19:56:30 <PeterW> (and how long does this damn boost thing take to build.)
19:56:39 <Gurkenglas> ok, forum till now didnt show me that theres a new comment in the dev meeting thread sry :o
19:57:58 --> Ringwaul (IceChat7@euirc-7c5ee46e.dial.bell.ca) has joined #openclonk-dev
19:58:32 <Ringwaul> Found a new bug while working on that addon of mine :(
19:58:59 <Ringwaul> PlayerMessage(0,"x") causes the game to crash
19:59:22 <Zapper> There still is a "PlayerMessage" function?
19:59:39 <Gurkenglas> why not?
19:59:48 <Zapper> Because you dont need it
19:59:54 <Zapper> Since you have all the functionality in Message
20:00:01 <Ringwaul> You do?
20:00:03 <Gurkenglas> ahk
20:00:09 <Gurkenglas> is the addon source public?
20:00:16 <Ringwaul> Eh, not yet
20:00:23 <Zapper> addon source?
20:00:29 <Ringwaul> My vampire addon
20:00:30 <Zapper> The vampire thingy?
20:00:36 <Ringwaul> Yeah
20:00:44 <Gurkenglas> hmm
20:01:13 <Ringwaul> Developer meeting in 1 minute?
20:01:16 <Gurkenglas> whats the reasen all these developers of bigger packs keep the source private until the release :o
20:01:22 <PeterW> No, 1 minute ago, actually.
20:01:24 <Gurkenglas> since one minute
20:01:30 <Ringwaul> Oh my
20:01:37 <Zapper> We are basically already right in the meeting
20:01:45 <PeterW> And nobody noticed.
20:01:54 <Ringwaul> Hur.
20:01:59 <Ringwaul> Meeting start!
20:02:12 <Ringwaul> (That's newton's cue)
20:03:34 <Ringwaul> Alright, I will coordinate the start of the meeting
20:03:50 <Guenther> hm, looks like the C4AulObjectContext stuff is broken
20:04:02 <Ringwaul> "Assessment of what has been done of the release-todo each (if possible) by the coordinator of that task"
20:04:13 <Ringwaul> Who wants to go first?
20:04:15 <Guenther> PlayerMessage(0,"x") should throw a need-an-object exception
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20:04:31 <Newton> meb
20:04:36 <Newton> I am there
20:04:42 <Ringwaul> :)
20:04:50 <ck> me too :D
20:05:03 <Newton> ok, lets go
20:05:22 <Newton> Hm, I propose we start right away with the status of the tutorials
20:05:37 <Ringwaul> sounds good
20:05:51 <Newton> who has an overview over what have been done and whats left to do for them?
20:05:58 <Newton> Sven? Maikel?
20:06:19 <Zapper> I had nothing to do with the tutorials so I will just remain silent
20:06:32 <Maikel> I need to complete the guide, and then write the messages for tut2
20:06:55 <Newton> guide?
20:07:02 <Maikel> professor
20:07:15 <Newton> ok
20:07:29 <Maikel> But I am not really sure how much a player should be guided
20:07:43 <Newton> I saw you modified the level design of tut2 a lot - is this design final?
20:07:55 <Zapper> Maikel, better guide them more in the first tutorials
20:08:04 <Zapper> Not understanding the game was the main problems for new players of CR
20:08:12 <Zapper> *one of the
20:08:48 <Newton> I have a different opinion on how to solve the problem of "not understanding the game"
20:09:18 <Newton> however, if there is the need to discuss about this, I'd suggest we put it into the workshop-phase at TOP 3
20:09:18 <Maikel> If that design is ok with you guys, I am satisfied with it
20:09:34 <Maikel> there is need for me
20:09:47 <Maikel> I want to discuss item descriptions there as well
20:09:56 <Newton> okay, noted down
20:10:15 <Newton> anything else about Tutorial 2?
20:10:34 <Maikel> in CR you could look up descriptions of items to learn about them in OC you can't, so the guide needs to explain every little detail about every item
20:10:46 <Maikel> apart from the grapple bow no
20:10:55 <Ringwaul> But it shouldn't throw it all at the player
20:11:13 <Zapper> Maikel, well, eventually there could be a key implemented that turns the cursor into the CR-help-cursor
20:11:19 <Zapper> I mean, you can never explain everything
20:11:24 <Newton> I see. Lets discuss this later in the workshop.
20:11:29 <PeterW> And you shouldn't
20:11:52 <PeterW> Get the player to the point where he can have fun, as fast as possible.
20:12:05 <Maikel> But it would be rather helpful for a player if he can look up how a cannon works f.e.
20:12:32 <Spell> I think he should rather try out instead of look up
20:12:57 <Spell> so that the controls are intuitive enough for simply trying out
20:13:10 <Ringwaul> You could have a pointer to the help button if the player takes too long
20:13:12 <Maikel> So we must hope they are
20:13:12 <PeterW> By the way: Record already works?
20:13:23 <Newton> Hmm, can I have the word for a second?
20:13:31 <Maikel> yes I am done
20:13:37 <PeterW> The only good way to really measure tutorial quality would be to get some newbies and record their playthroughs
20:14:20 <Newton> If we discuss those details now, for every todo that pops up, the first agenda point will take a lot of time. As I said, implementation details of those things might not interest everyone so I'd like to finsih the stuff first that is relevant for everyone
20:14:24 <PeterW> (I think I can grab one or two flatmates around around here, if the need arises :) )
20:14:27 <Newton> and after wie finished this, we return back to the topic
20:14:36 <Newton> +s that have popped up before
20:14:52 <Newton> I'll note every topic that pops up down so it won't be forgotten
20:14:53 <Newton> OK?
20:15:10 <Ringwaul> Alright
20:15:27 <Newton> Well, lets move on
20:15:48 <Newton> anything more in Tutorials?, Ringwaul, Sven?
20:16:13 <Ringwaul> I stated in the forum I would probably like to remake tutorial 3
20:16:18 <clonkine> sven will be here in a minute
20:16:49 <Ringwaul> However, if Tutorial 3 is just "Falling Stars Peak" it wouldn't be consistent with the other tutorials
20:16:52 <Newton> oh, didn't see that
20:17:02 <Newton> Falling Start Peak?
20:17:11 <Ringwaul> (From Wester)
20:17:12 <Ringwaul> +n
20:17:21 <Ringwaul> Stars fall down and you shoot them with your gun
20:17:26 <Newton> mhm
20:17:45 <Newton> so the status of Tutorial 3 is that it will be completely redone by you?
20:18:00 --- luchs is now known as Luchs
20:18:19 <Ringwaul> I may just modify the map so it's not so linear
20:18:22 <Newton> can you tell us rougly whats the plan for your redesign, if you require any features by others etc?
20:19:11 <Ringwaul> I think I will redesign the map and where the targets appear
20:20:22 <Ringwaul> And that's about it
20:20:32 <Ringwaul> (make different ways to get to a target and such)
20:21:00 <Newton> ok
20:21:44 <Newton> I think the idea about the prof was to incorporate it into every tutorial
20:22:00 <Maikel> The same holds for the flag as the goal
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20:22:16 <Newton> what about this colorful rainbow-respawn-thing?
20:22:43 <Maikel> Was just there to prevent the player from messing up things
20:22:46 <Ringwaul> Well, the prof would not do much in Tut3 apart from telling the clonk to "shoot some targets"
20:22:48 <Maikel> Is
20:23:00 <Newton> which is good@messing up
20:23:21 <Gurkenglas> btw, how can I get to the final flag of Tutorial 1?
20:23:32 <Newton> it could be worth integrating this into all Tutorials
20:23:36 <Zapper> <Ringwaul> Well, the prof would not do much in Tut3 apart from telling the clonk to "shoot some targets" <- Then he should say at least that imo :)
20:23:46 <Ringwaul> Heh heh
20:24:12 <Maikel> What do you mean newton, the player should be able to mess things up without ruining the possibility of completing the goal?
20:24:50 <Newton> no, it is a good thing that this rainbow-thing preventsthe player messing up stuff
20:25:22 <Ringwaul> @Gurkenglas I don't believe it is finshed :x
20:25:31 <Maikel> Well then I'll implement that into the other tutorials whereever needed
20:26:37 <Newton> what about Tutorial 1?
20:27:32 <Ringwaul> Not much progress has been done on Tut1 afaik
20:28:16 <Newton> hm, Sven is not here yet
20:28:30 <Newton> we can postpone that
20:28:38 <Ringwaul> I suppose it wouldn't be hard... a small map with a few jump, hangle, scale, and dig obstacles
20:28:44 <Newton> yes
20:28:48 <Maikel> loam and flints
20:29:05 <Newton> as soon as he is here, we can talk about if someone else could/should complete it
20:29:15 <Newton> or if he has enough time to complete it
20:29:23 <Ringwaul> I'll trade Tutorial 3 for it. :D
20:29:29 <Ringwaul> (jk)
20:29:53 <Ringwaul> What's next on the list?
20:29:55 <Newton> alright, whats next?
20:30:06 <Ringwaul> Sword Functionality! :D
20:30:13 <Zapper> im there, im there
20:30:24 <Newton> we should discuss this when we got the todo completed
20:30:30 <Sven2> re
20:30:31 <Ringwaul> Ah, good point
20:30:32 <Zapper> im gone
20:30:39 <Newton> Sven2
20:30:51 <Newton> we were talking about tutorials, whats left to do what has been done
20:30:57 <Newton> you were working on Tutorial 1
20:31:03 <Sven2> Well, as you may have noticed, I don't have time
20:31:04 <Newton> whats to report?
20:31:18 <Sven2> And I'll be gone next week for some time
20:31:33 <Newton> oh, whereto?
20:31:41 <Sven2> Otherwise, some control issue has been fixed
20:31:44 <Sven2> Alaska
20:31:47 <Newton> :O
20:32:32 <Ringwaul> That one state that's somehow part of america? ;)
20:32:33 <Newton> hmm I am curious but Ill postpone that to after the meeting ;-)
20:32:42 <Sven2> Nothing special :)
20:32:58 <Sven2> Anyway - did the bug with wrong coordinates still occur?
20:33:22 <Sven2> When I tested, I only got another bug (the one where you throw instead of using after a menu was open, and I fixed it
20:33:26 <Newton> http://bugs.openclonk.org/view.php?id=172 ?
20:33:40 <Ringwaul> :D
20:33:43 <Sven2> Well, that works for me now
20:33:53 <Sven2> Tested it three times. Loam always bridges in the correct direction
20:34:14 <Ringwaul> Yay!
20:34:28 <Ringwaul> That bug was driving me nuts
20:34:39 <Newton> ok, see my last comment ^^
20:34:49 <Sven2> Maybe it's still there. I didn't fix anything concerning invalid coordinates
20:35:16 <Sven2> The stuff I fixed was that sometimes, keys would be considered held down so following key presses would be sent as key repeats
20:36:09 <Sven2> So, anyone willing to take over Tutorial 1?
20:36:49 <Newton> that might have been the bug@description
20:36:56 <Newton> Ringwaul, Maikel?
20:37:02 <Maikel> Yes
20:37:05 <Newton> you two have been the most active in Tutorial development
20:37:07 <Maikel> at both questions
20:37:17 <Ringwaul> Uhm, I would, but finishing tut3 is going to be a pain
20:37:35 <Newton> ok, so Maikel takes care of tut1
20:37:35 <Sven2> I'd say you just switch to tut 1 when your tutorial is done
20:37:36 <Sven2> @both of you
20:37:45 <Newton> which is good, because he made the prof + the rainbow stuff too
20:37:47 <Ringwaul> Heh
20:37:56 <Ringwaul> Indeed
20:37:56 <Newton> so Tut1 and 2 will feel very similar
20:38:07 <Sven2> Btw, about "Prof. clonkine" - it annoyed me a bit hat you couldn't control anything while that window was open
20:38:14 <Sven2> It's not obvious that the small window would block all your controls
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20:38:24 <Maikel> That's cured at the moment
20:38:33 <Newton> but still the window is in the way
20:38:50 <Maikel> to be discussed later
20:38:54 <Newton> ok
20:39:03 <clonkine> what the hell?
20:39:28 <clonkine> i dont know anything about Prof. clonkine! my computer still cant deal with open gl
20:39:28 <Ringwaul> You weren't aware you were the Tutorial Prof.?
20:39:33 <clonkine> what ist prof clonkine?
20:39:49 <clonkine> !
20:39:51 <Ringwaul> You tell newbs how to play the game :)
20:39:55 <clonkine> oh ok
20:40:01 <Newton> the name of the tutorial guide right now
20:40:13 <clonkine> nice, i dont even know it by myself (ok no one need to know..)
20:40:14 <Newton> cause maikel borrowed your forum avatar for the title image
20:40:17 <Maikel> because of missing graphics
20:40:20 <clonkine> whatß
20:40:28 <clonkine> and when are you gonna asking me this?
20:40:31 <Sven2> Will it replace the baby?
20:40:50 <Newton> about misssing graphics - who will create a graphic for the tutorial professor?
20:41:01 <Maikel> you had newton in treeclimbing outfit
20:41:06 <Maikel> randrian was to
20:41:10 <Newton> Sven2: no, thats the picture for the goal. The Professor is displayed left of the goal
20:41:17 <Newton> okay@randrian
20:41:26 <Sven2> Mh, could still have something better for the goal
20:41:41 <Newton> what about the tutorial goal picture?
20:41:56 <Newton> anyone wants to create this?
20:42:07 <Maikel> [20:40] <clonkine> and when are you gonna asking me this? <-- I told you some time ago, but your Alzheimer is playing up again obviously!
20:42:10 <clonkine> oh newton dont try to take my mind off this!
20:42:11 <Ringwaul> What would it look like?
20:42:28 <clonkine> oh no maikel, really<ß
20:42:39 <clonkine> so then: you can have Prof. clonkine !
20:42:41 <Newton> Sven already made some suggestions in the forum
20:42:44 <clonkine> but write clonkine with small letters..
20:42:59 <Newton> could be anything that seems appropiate
20:43:07 <Maikel> I did
20:43:09 <Newton> a book seems reasonable
20:43:11 <clonkine> nice
20:43:13 <Newton> oh@Maikel
20:43:27 <clonkine> when you'll fix this OC i can play it on my computer, too
20:43:32 <Ringwaul> Then I can write "Clonk: For dummies" on the book's cover
20:43:46 <Sven2> Actually, I thought the goal was to be used for tips
20:44:02 <Ringwaul> Apparently the prof goes beside the goal?
20:44:08 <Sven2> Why do we have the goal AND a separate tip icon?
20:44:25 <Maikel> because a goal is a goal
20:44:32 <Newton> ok that should be discussed too@seperate or not; I'll note that down
20:44:39 <Maikel> and the tutorial guide may even be animated at later stages
20:44:50 <Sven2> The goal icon could tell you the current (sub)goal and a tip to reach it?
20:44:55 <clonkine> can i have picture from prof clonkine please?
20:45:06 <Newton> clonkine: its your forum avatar
20:45:16 <clonkine> yay sven said it..sry
20:45:21 <clonkine> hm
20:45:38 <Sven2> Just saying. If the goal desc does not give you tips in the tutorial, then what else should it tell you?
20:45:38 <clonkine> but Newton what about: no female clonks? ;) just a joke..
20:45:44 <Maikel> http://hg.openclonk.org/openclonk/raw-file/25a791c06fff/planet/Tutorial.c4f/Tutorial.c4d/TutGuide.c4d/Graphics.png
20:45:49 <Sven2> There's really not much to write there
20:46:07 <Maikel> I'll draw a mustache on it :P
20:46:08 <Newton> *shrug*
20:46:36 <Newton> OK anybody knows the status of the other scenarios?
20:46:54 <Newton> namely the melees and races?
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20:47:05 <Ringwaul> I organized the melees into a proper folder
20:47:17 <Newton> are they playable?
20:47:23 <Newton> something missing?
20:47:26 <Ringwaul> Yes
20:47:29 <Ringwaul> Ehm
20:47:31 <Gurkenglas> xD
20:47:31 <Zapper> By the way, I still have my King of the Hill goal lying around
20:47:42 <Maikel> put it in the repos
20:47:42 <Ringwaul> MeleeMountKOTH :)
20:47:44 <Gurkenglas> whats with KaiWolfs CTF?
20:47:55 <Zapper> <Maikel> put it in the repos <- true
20:47:56 <Newton> who?
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20:48:23 <Newton> so the melees are done? The parkours are done?
20:48:25 <Maikel> that was loaded on CCAN and was quite fun to play but not done very well
20:48:26 <Ringwaul> @Gurkenglas Is this for OC?
20:48:36 <Gurkenglas> yes
20:48:42 <Ringwaul> I think there are problems with some of the melees
20:48:45 <Gurkenglas> never seen? 2 teams
20:48:52 <Maikel> i.e. missing graphics and the map was not super
20:48:56 <Gurkenglas> each play gets a bow a windjar and infinite relaunches
20:49:04 <Gurkenglas> CTF like hazard
20:49:08 <Ringwaul> Hmm.
20:49:09 <Newton> it doesn't matter. We are collecting todos that are REQUIRED to launch the release. It doesn't keep us from adding cool scenarios later@MeleeMountKOTH
20:49:12 <Gurkenglas> *in
20:49:30 <Ringwaul> Indeed
20:49:40 <Ringwaul> Oh yeah!
20:49:53 <Ringwaul> In some melees, the player is supposed to pick some starting weapons
20:50:08 <Ringwaul> But it doesn't work anymore, so the player just sits for 10 seconds waiting to spawn
20:50:36 <Newton> yeah, I removed that because it was hacked to be part of the melee goal or something IIRC
20:50:51 <Newton> I'll note down that this needs to be reimplemented properly
20:51:00 <Maikel> yes bad implementation on my side
20:51:11 <Ringwaul> In Melee Mountain I just made the player run around and collect weapons
20:51:26 <Maikel> will fix that but prioritized lower than tutorials
20:51:32 <Newton> okay
20:51:47 <Newton> and the races?
20:52:00 <Maikel> boomrace works
20:52:02 <Ringwaul> We should pick ~3 or so races and improve them
20:52:07 <Maikel> cavern works
20:52:21 <Newton> improve in what way? Is it necessary?
20:52:38 <Ringwaul> Well, I was thinking of improving one of these random parkours
20:52:45 <Ringwaul> (not myself)
20:53:04 <Newton> okay lets have a discussion about this in top3 collecting ideas what to improve
20:53:06 <Ringwaul> For instance, parkours like Sky Race are quite nifty but are visually bland
20:53:17 <Newton> I can imagine tht
20:53:56 <Newton> I noted some stuff to do by myself. Since we are running low on time I'll just list it:
20:53:58 <Zapper> I hope the current version is working
20:54:02 <Ringwaul> Hmm, I forgot how awesome boomrace was
20:54:13 <Zapper> remote: Attempt to commit or push text file(s) using CRLF line endings <- asd
20:54:28 <Ringwaul> LineEndings!!!
20:54:30 <Ringwaul> >:(
20:54:43 <Ringwaul> Erm
20:55:10 <Newton> 1. stuff that was marked as [optional] we will not include in the final-todo-list because it is just optional. Now we just want to finish the stuff that is required and the optional stuff that has already been integrated in the required stuff
20:55:37 <Newton> so since the floating balloon is not finished yet but also not used in no scenario, it doesnt need to be finished
20:55:47 <Ringwaul> Also, that is a good point
20:55:48 <Newton> also not ht ecatapult, gatling,...
20:56:17 <Ringwaul> The magic balloon should probably be a backpack or such
20:56:24 <Newton> the only C4Script object thing left to be implemented is thus the melee weapons + shield
20:56:27 <Newton> sword, shield, club
20:56:36 <Sven2> http://mit.edu/~sven2/www/Screenshot025.png <- The powder keg fills the whole Clonk preview image btw :D
20:56:45 <Maikel> grappler :(
20:57:08 <Ringwaul> Yes, grapller :(
20:57:20 <Ringwaul> Randrian needs to reimpliment that
20:57:24 <Newton> what, all?
20:57:32 <Sven2> Mh. Sure the grappler wasn't fixed with my control fix?
20:57:33 <Newton> ah
20:57:52 <Sven2> I could jump through almost all of Tutorial2 using the Grappler
20:57:55 <Ringwaul> If the grappler is actually usable...
20:57:56 <Maikel> Can't we just revert Randrians commit and then fix the bugs, instead of fixing bugs, revert that and then again fix bugs
20:58:01 <Zapper> soo
20:58:02 <Newton> yes, it wasn't. Not compeletely. There are some bugs still from the AimManager from Randrian and some usability bugs
20:58:16 <Newton> but all of them have been reported in the bugtracker
20:59:01 <occ> czapper * 8ba476bcc2ba planet/Objects.c4d/Goals.c4d/KingOfTheHill.c4d (24 files in 8 dirs): King of the Hill goal added
20:59:09 <Zapper> finally
20:59:14 <Ringwaul> Oh crap
20:59:15 <Newton> another thing i noted down:
20:59:29 <Ringwaul> I never pushed that falling animation commit D:
21:00:07 <Newton> gui graphics, clonk logo and icons, website art
21:00:16 <Newton> website redesign to accomodate download, more player-friendly layout etc.
21:00:30 <Newton> and lastly compiling as RPM, compile as DEB, compile as EXE
21:00:42 <Newton> plus finally showing on blogs, developer platforms/official repos
21:00:46 <Newton> but this is after the release
21:00:57 <Newton> and thats it. At least what I noted down
21:01:07 <Newton> anything else come to your mind?
21:01:10 <Zapper> Newton, well, you could just create one shiny entrance site linking to all the important stuff
21:01:15 <Zapper> While still retaining the old design in general
21:01:43 <Newton> well I want to change the design of the header a bit, now it looks very much like a development site
21:01:49 <Zapper> I mean, the entrance site could actually be at openclonk.org
21:01:50 <Ringwaul> Also, I mentioned a while ago the water texture looked weird, due to it being a picture of non-moving waves
21:01:59 <Zapper> While wiki.openclonk.org stays the ~same
21:02:13 <Newton> f.e. a wooden header, Endeavour-ttf perhaps, start page too like you mentioned, reorder the links the navbar etc
21:02:51 <Newton> brb
21:02:56 <Zapper> Player would actually never have to see the link to the reference and stuff
21:02:56 <Zapper> *players
21:03:13 <Spell> doesn't sound good @ wooden header, Endavour-ttf
21:03:20 <Zapper> Just some shiny "GET IT HERE" and "GET HELP HERE", "SCREENSHOTS OVA THERE"
21:03:23 <Spell> I think the general desing ist good
21:03:59 <Sven2> Yes. Like it was done for CR
21:04:56 <Ringwaul> I would like to mention we should probably have a very solid colour water texture
21:05:11 <Ringwaul> With some minimal noise
21:05:29 <Ringwaul> Each friend of mine who saw the current texture said it looked weird
21:05:31 <Zapper> What about Guenthers animated textures? :)
21:05:34 <Newton> btw, Günther, PeterW, Zapper, Isilkor, Loriel - do you think anything (except whats already marked in the bugtracker) needs to be completed or discussed before the release?
21:06:03 <PeterW> Hm, noref? ;)
21:06:07 <Zapper> Phew, hard to say. I'd like to discuss the melee stuff because it just lacks everything atm. But that is already well known
21:06:31 <Newton> noref?
21:06:46 <PeterW> The branch removing the reference support from the engine
21:07:11 <PeterW> I was thinking about merging it over the next weeks
21:07:24 <Newton> okay
21:07:33 <Maikel> Aren't EffectVars also references?
21:07:42 <PeterW> Well, yes
21:07:55 <Zapper> No reference support anymore? :(
21:08:04 <Newton> -> Set/GetEffectVar then or what?
21:08:08 <PeterW> Put they are kind-of supported. I transform that into "SetEffectVar" form
21:08:24 <PeterW> What does not work is "obj->EffectVar(...) = bla"
21:08:25 <Zapper> D:
21:08:38 <Ringwaul> :(
21:08:43 <Zapper> I thought we got rid of SetVar-stuff a few years ago :(
21:08:45 <Newton> hm
21:08:55 <PeterW> It's just internally @ Zapper
21:09:20 <PeterW> Eventually we should implement Günthers proplist-effects anyway
21:09:21 <Zapper> The old change or the new change?
21:09:23 <Newton> we already had the discussion about the sense or non-sense of removing references from C4Script
21:09:32 <Newton> didnt we?
21:09:37 <PeterW> Yes, I won ;)
21:09:38 <Zapper> Well, I didnt at least :P
21:09:45 <Newton> I think the outcome was that removing it was ok
21:09:50 <PeterW> It does make sense, but it might break a few scripts
21:09:56 <PeterW> So everyone needs to be aware of that
21:10:00 <Newton> as long as you fix those scripts...
21:10:12 <Maikel> As long as effects are not broken we are ok
21:10:14 <PeterW> I might try :)
21:10:25 <Zapper> But bascially only stuff using reference parameters and EffectVar()=x broke?
21:10:32 <PeterW> But I saw that Maikel was moving around code that I already fixed
21:10:47 <PeterW> As I said, EffectVar() = x works
21:11:05 <PeterW> What doesn't work is the combination with an object call, like obj->EffectVar() = x
21:11:31 <PeterW> (Because that's a good deal more complicated to do on the byte code level, better don't ask why.)
21:11:32 <Newton> btw
21:11:51 <Zapper> mhmh
21:11:57 <PeterW> But reference parameters and return values stop working, yes.
21:12:06 <Zapper> But EffectVar still has the pTarget parameter, right?
21:12:13 <PeterW> Yes
21:12:18 <Zapper> So, why would you need obj->EffectVar anyway? :)
21:12:26 <PeterW> No idea? :)
21:12:43 <Newton> (should cast a warning if this is used then)
21:12:52 <PeterW> Exactly what happens
21:12:52 <Newton> if not an error ;-)
21:12:53 <Zapper> highlight me when you get to the melee weapons ;)
21:12:59 <PeterW> Yeah, it's an error
21:13:07 <Newton> no, we get to a more interesting topic now
21:13:10 <PeterW> In most cases the engine will actually complain
21:13:15 <Newton> TOP 2:
21:13:25 <PeterW> So if you're doing "MyFunc(...) = bla", the engine will tell you that it doesn't support that
21:13:31 <Newton> logo, name, versioning
21:13:49 <PeterW> Trickier is "FindPosInMat(x, y)", obviously. The engine can't detect that.
21:13:59 <PeterW> (But will complain about the function definition)
21:14:09 <PeterW> Yeah, go on. Just needed to finish that :)
21:14:27 <Newton> err
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21:14:32 <Newton> yeah
21:14:33 <Newton> so
21:14:38 <Newton> the name
21:14:48 <Newton> how about OpenClonk
21:15:08 <Newton> first release: OpenClonk 1
21:15:13 <Newton> second relese: OpenClonk 2
21:15:14 <Newton> etc.
21:15:36 <PeterW> Boring!
21:15:38 <Newton> every update of the first release: OpenClonk 1.X
21:16:05 <Newton> also, every release has a subtitle
21:16:06 <Maikel> releases do have subtitles?
21:16:13 <Maikel> *lame*
21:16:17 <Ringwaul> I liked OpenClonk : ROAR
21:16:17 <Ringwaul> THough it's not vrey conventional
21:16:17 <Ringwaul> very*
21:16:28 <PeterW> Yeah, I still think we should have titles. Just like Ubuntu :)
21:16:40 <Sven2> Sounds like it could have come from the english clonk.de forum :P @ROAR
21:16:53 <Matthi> http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?pid=8524#pid8524
21:17:05 <Matthi> ^- I'm all for something like this.
21:17:07 <PeterW> Let's just collect some of the better suggestions, have a voting and be done with it
21:17:40 <PeterW> Concerning the version numbers
21:17:43 <Spell> "OpenClonk 1" sounds like it would be something big. Maybe instead "OpenClonk M1" or something (Milestone)
21:17:43 <Newton> uh, we tried to
21:17:43 <Maikel> just let anyone vote :D
21:17:59 <PeterW> Really, where?
21:18:23 <Newton> well, we didnt have a vote because it didnt come to it
21:18:40 <Sven2> I thought we had decided that on the OCM
21:18:42 <PeterW> Concerning the version numbers: We want to break the Clonk versioning scheme? It would make sense.
21:18:48 <Newton> because always the discussion went into the sand?1 [im sande verlaufen]
21:18:53 <PeterW> (but okay, let's discuss the name first:9
21:19:17 <-- Ringwaul has quit (Connection reset by peer)
21:19:18 <PeterW> Well, should I do it? :)
21:19:24 --> Ringwaul (IceChat7@euirc-7c5ee46e.dial.bell.ca) has joined #openclonk-dev
21:19:25 <clonkine> <!Newton> because always the discussion went into the sand?1 [im sande verlaufen] <-- süß!
21:19:28 <Newton> Sven2: yeah, but Matthes was not OK with [Small Subtitle] CLONK
21:19:34 <Sven2> Oh, right
21:19:55 <PeterW> (with it = select alternatives, open voting)
21:19:59 <Newton> ok lets do one after another: versioning
21:20:00 <Maikel> I am in favour of OpenClonk Ride on a Rocket - An OpenClonk project, and whatever logo suits matthes
21:20:20 <Ringwaul> We've been so on the fence with the title
21:20:20 <PeterW> Do we have rockets?
21:20:28 <Sven2> Yes. Plenty.
21:20:30 <Newton> we have one rocket
21:20:42 <Ringwaul> Boompacks!
21:20:42 <Ringwaul> :D
21:20:45 <PeterW> Well, maybe should play the game sometime.
21:20:52 <Sven2> Rockets attacking windmills. Boompacks. Giant endboss rockets.
21:20:52 <Ringwaul> That's an idea
21:20:55 <PeterW> (boost just finished compiling, about half way there!)
21:21:01 <Sven2> They're even on the backtrop I screenshotted for the main menu
21:21:10 <Maikel> Peter you might be a good candidate to test the tutorials :P
21:21:13 <Newton> (hey what about OpenClonk Boost? ;-))
21:21:24 <Ringwaul> heh heh
21:21:30 <PeterW> I kind of like "Back to Rock", but that might be just me :)
21:21:34 <Newton> OK, we got one suggestion
21:21:39 <Newton> two
21:21:41 <Sven2> I think Peter should test and we all join to observe
21:21:47 <PeterW> Haha :)
21:21:58 <PeterW> I might record it
21:21:58 <Ringwaul> Let's collect three suggestions and vote on them
21:22:05 <Sven2> Yes, I'm also in favor of something like Back to (the) Rock(s).
21:22:19 <Maikel> Do we have rocks?
21:22:27 <Sven2> I think we do
21:22:29 <Sven2> Unless someone deleted them
21:22:29 <Ringwaul> We're so close to release and still don't have an agreed title D:
21:22:34 <Newton> not a vote, but just to see whats the acceptance: Please say [ROAR] - ACK or [ROAR] - no
21:22:49 <Sven2> [ ]x ROAR no
21:22:49 <Newton> [ROAR] ack
21:22:52 <Ringwaul> [ROAR] ACK
21:22:57 <PeterW> I think it's cool, but misleading. no.
21:23:07 <Newton> Sven: ?
21:23:14 <Maikel> ROAR ack
21:23:19 <Maikel> BtR ack
21:23:26 <Matthi> ROAR no
21:23:26 <Maikel> Boost ack
21:23:27 <Spell> What is with the BOOM-Thingy?
21:23:34 <Spell> ROAR ack
21:23:38 <Newton> BOOM ack
21:23:40 <Sven2> Back to the BOOM?
21:23:52 <Sven2> BOOM no
21:23:59 <Ringwaul> BOOM Ack
21:24:00 <Sven2> They all remind me of CR IDs
21:24:21 <Newton> and Roar also no? your "vote" was confusing
21:24:29 <Sven2> Yes, it was a no vote
21:24:33 <Newton> ok
21:24:41 <Ringwaul> OpenClonk: Revolution
21:24:53 <Newton> so what about peters favourite BTR?:
21:24:56 <Ringwaul> Ack, no?
21:25:03 <Sven2> BttR? ack
21:25:07 <Newton> [BTR] ok, but do not favour
21:25:21 <PeterW> (ok, obviously)
21:25:22 <Spell> BTR no
21:25:25 <Newton> ringwaul: yes
21:25:39 <Newton> Sven2: BTTR could also be a C4ID :P
21:25:52 <Newton> the others?
21:25:54 <Matthi> OC: REVO
21:25:55 <Sven2> BttR would not :P
21:25:55 <Zapper> Why "Ride on a rocket" and not "Ride the rocket" btw?
21:26:05 <Maikel> as well as BttR can be an OCID
21:26:12 <PeterW> Because it's not ROAR, I guess?
21:26:26 <Ringwaul> heh heh
21:26:29 <PeterW> And it's even more misleading.
21:26:32 <Spell> RoaR
21:27:01 <Spell> It could be also an OCID ;)
21:27:03 <Ringwaul> I like OpenClonk: Revolution because it really speaks about the game
21:27:16 <Matthi> I don't like the *rocket names for OC is not a rocket riding game
21:27:23 <Ringwaul> It is the first game since CP (?) which is actually different
21:27:24 <Newton> so how about the acknowledgement for Revolution?
21:27:31 <Matthi> Revolution ack
21:27:31 <Maikel> ack
21:27:32 <Sven2> Actually, most Clonk titles were quite revolutionary in terms of features
21:27:32 <Newton> [Revolution] ACK
21:27:51 <Sven2> Revolution: Also no ;)
21:27:52 <Spell> I think its an name wich is to boring.
21:27:59 <PeterW> Ack, but in /that/ spirit, I would like "Reborn" better.
21:28:00 <Sven2> Anyway, given the suggestion pool now, I would actually like Roar a bit more
21:28:13 <PeterW> For my taste, it captures better what actually happened
21:28:38 <Ringwaul> I'd go for that
21:28:53 <Spell> RoaR is an nice backronym :)
21:29:04 <Sven2> Reborn also ack.
21:29:11 <Sven2> What's the point of thsi "voting"? :)
21:29:11 <Maikel> I want to revive Click 'n Clonk!
21:29:14 <Ringwaul> Reborn ack
21:29:20 <Matthi> Peter: I'd prefer "Birth" then - A painful struggle with lots of squeezes
21:29:41 <Ringwaul> Gathering a list of what are acceptable titles
21:29:45 <PeterW> Rebirth, you mean? :)
21:30:00 <Maikel> How can something even be reborn?
21:30:04 <Sven2> I think a forum poll would be much more structured than that
21:30:13 <Sven2> Especially because you would vote while knowing all possibilities
21:30:29 <PeterW> Well, it does caputer better if people have strong opinions against something
21:30:44 <Maikel> How about giving everybody one week to make a title suggestion and then vote?
21:30:47 <PeterW> As we're not looking for the option with the strongest supporters, but for the option with the least problems
21:30:55 <Sven2> Are we?
21:31:01 <PeterW> Well, I guess
21:31:06 <Spell> Maikel: Phonixes! Budihsmn!
21:31:16 <Spell> @ How can something even be reborn?
21:31:18 <Sven2> Allow multiple votes on the poll then
21:31:29 <PeterW> Preference voting :)
21:31:29 <Ringwaul> So we have so far: ROAR, Back to (the) Rocks, Boom, Revolution, Reborn
21:31:32 <Sven2> Ye, ask Newton. It's got something to do with Krishna
21:31:39 <Newton> hm
21:31:53 <Newton> no, with the wheel of life
21:32:05 <Newton> anyway, these are all the suggestions?
21:32:06 <Sven2> I would like to add, while I like Roar and Bttr, I do *not* like the corresponding acronyms
21:32:10 <Spell> "Back from Ashes"?
21:32:11 <PeterW> I mean, I'm okay with most suggestions, but really don't like RoaR
21:32:31 <Sven2> Boom is not an acronym, is it?
21:32:41 <Ringwaul> Well, CR was never really in ashes
21:32:48 <Spell> you are right
21:32:53 <Ringwaul> @Sven2 Not afaik
21:33:18 <Ringwaul> So, how shall we vote on title?
21:33:22 <Sven2> Mh *afk for awhile*
21:33:25 <Ringwaul> In the forum/IRC?
21:33:29 <Newton> wait
21:34:07 <Newton> http://doodle.com/fa8rv6usv3yuxxkf
21:34:20 <Ringwaul> Oh, good
21:34:24 <Newton> vote (OK) if you don't strongly favour it but its also ok if the title would be this
21:34:31 <Newton> No only if you strongly disagree
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21:34:58 <PeterW> My vote is in.
21:35:19 <Sven2> It's "Back to *the* rocks"
21:35:28 <Sven2> To mimic "Back to the roots"
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21:35:49 <Newton> oh, ok
21:35:59 <PeterW> Hm, let's discuss that when we're done with it
21:36:05 <Ringwaul> Oh whoops
21:36:13 <Newton> shit
21:36:14 <Ringwaul> I meant OK on Back to the Rocks
21:36:24 <Newton> so this happens if you edit a coloumn
21:36:26 <PeterW> You can change it, I think
21:36:36 <Newton> can you change your votes?
21:36:40 <Zapper> "Ride on a rocket" sounds clumsy, imo :<
21:36:44 <Zapper> voted
21:36:51 <PeterW> Yes, you can @ change
21:37:01 <Newton> what I don't like about BttR is that it is not true. Its not back to the rocks
21:37:06 <Newton> you fight with weapons now
21:37:17 <Maikel> <- failure
21:37:21 <PeterW> More true than rockets, though.
21:37:28 <Sven2> Now I entered twice
21:37:32 <Ringwaul> That's what I thought initially, but OC is all about the melee
21:37:37 <Maikel> then you are a failure to
21:37:39 <Sven2> Not sure how you can edit
21:37:41 <Ringwaul> (and parkour)
21:37:51 <Sven2> Oh, under "functions"
21:37:52 <PeterW> And can't we put in a stone sling just to make it right? :D
21:38:16 <Spell> hmpf
21:38:17 <Ringwaul> Ah, you have to press "Edit Entry"
21:38:22 <Sven2> Maikel is very picky :D
21:38:27 <Maikel> yes
21:38:33 <Maikel> delete that one pls
21:38:35 <Sven2> Anyway, *afk now*
21:38:40 <PeterW> Maikel is a very negative guy.
21:38:47 <Spell> ah
21:39:16 <Newton> hmm
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21:39:33 <Newton> http://doodle.com/fa8rv6usv3yuxxkf?adminKey=&participantKey=
21:39:48 <Newton> so RTR, BTTR and Boom are the most accepted
21:39:56 <Maikel> my vote is not ok
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21:40:02 <Ringwaul> RTR?
21:40:07 <Newton> but not very distinctly
21:40:11 <Newton> rock to...
21:40:12 <Newton> err
21:40:14 <Newton> that one
21:40:17 <Newton> btr
21:40:22 <Newton> bttr
21:40:23 <Newton> err
21:40:24 <Ringwaul> Oh
21:40:25 <Spell> ROAR
21:40:29 <Newton> yes
21:40:48 <PeterW> Doodle likes Reborn best ;)
21:40:59 <Ringwaul> :>
21:41:20 <Spell> It's the most accepted
21:41:27 <Spell> but not the most wanted
21:41:28 <Newton> because everyone would be at least "OK" with it
21:41:28 <Spell> ^^
21:41:34 <PeterW> So now we have statistical data. Let's have a discussion about how to interpret it ;)
21:41:50 <PeterW> (Coming to the exact same stalemate! What fun!)
21:42:04 <Newton> for doodle yellow seem to count like green
21:42:04 <Maikel> This must be moved to the forums, let's get on with weapons
21:42:11 <Spell> only PeterW dislikes RoaR so we can ignore him ;)
21:42:20 <Ringwaul> Agreed with Maikel
21:42:25 <Newton> uhm
21:42:33 <PeterW> Matthes as well @ Spell
21:42:36 <PeterW> Äh
21:42:37 <PeterW> Matthi
21:42:39 <PeterW> :)
21:42:43 <Spell> oh
21:42:44 <Newton> can we really not reach a decision about this now?
21:42:53 <Spell> hadn't refreshed yet
21:43:08 <Ringwaul> Well, unless it's just going to be OpenClonk : Reborn or something..
21:43:20 <PeterW> Well, if you go by me "least hated" strategy, it's "Reborn"
21:43:38 <Maikel> this vote is rather indesicive
21:43:49 <Isilkor> has the highlight been something important, it's buried somewhere in the depths of my buffer
21:43:49 <PeterW> That's hardly a surprise
21:43:50 <Newton> because it is not a vote but a "meinungsspiegel"
21:44:03 <Newton> this: http://doodle.com/fa8rv6usv3yuxxkf?adminKey=&participantKey=
21:44:06 <Newton> isilkor
21:44:24 <Newton> okay well lets first get to the last point of the second agenda point
21:44:26 <Newton> logo, icon
21:44:45 <Maikel> So you constructed something that does not bring us where we want to be :)
21:44:49 <Newton> as the logo spell suggested that metal-looking-like logo
21:44:50 <Ringwaul> The clonk riding the boompack?
21:44:53 <Newton> I personal like it
21:45:05 <Ringwaul> I as well
21:45:06 <Newton> ringwaul: logo, you know, title
21:45:19 <PeterW> Well, it does. Doodle is giving the best option in bold...
21:45:49 <PeterW> (and I'm not just saying the because my option is winning. I just want a conclusion.)
21:46:01 <Newton> http://forum.openclonk.org/topic_show.pl?tid=490
21:46:21 <Newton> Peter:wasnt your suggestion bttr?
21:46:30 <PeterW> Reborn as well
21:46:39 <Newton> so anyone against having this or a variation of this logo as our logo?
21:47:02 <Maikel> if the title is back to the rocks, yes, otherwise no
21:47:11 <Newton> how so?
21:47:11 <Zapper> Why not call or "Roar" ?
21:47:23 <Zapper> "Ride on a rocket" just sounds clumsy :<
21:47:23 <Ringwaul> (unrelated, a misquito just landed on one of my keyboard keys and I squashed it while typing)
21:47:49 <Newton> err, are we talking about the logo or the title now?
21:47:50 <Maikel> oh it is logo independent of releases?
21:48:13 <Maikel> never mind what I said then, I have no objections
21:48:38 <Spell> I think the best would be first finding some nice symbol for the title and than making an logo out of it. But that old logo would be atleast an compromise.
21:48:38 <Ringwaul> Let's just take spell's logo and copy&paste it onto the mainmenu background x)
21:48:40 <Newton> well, the main title: OpenClonk stays the same
21:48:47 <PeterW> (how could you have objections if there's no alternative?)
21:49:09 <Newton> Peter: if you really don't like it, then you could have an objection
21:49:29 <Newton> okay
21:49:31 <Newton> about the icon
21:49:42 <PeterW> Without an alternative to present, it would be rather destructive :)
21:49:44 <Newton> spell made another suggestion for a logo
21:49:59 <Newton> this shovel+musket logo, crossed
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21:50:15 <Spell> it was Sword+Hammer but ok
21:50:17 <Ringwaul> Sounds nifty
21:50:26 <Newton> oh
21:50:44 <Newton> well i took from the discussino therafter that musket+shovel would fit better to clonk
21:50:48 <Ringwaul> Gameplay is more about modifying the landscape and shooting people right now
21:50:55 <Newton> i was not aware that this was not agreed
21:50:58 <Newton> by all
21:51:12 <Ringwaul> Perhaps in release 2 the icon will be sword/hammer crossed
21:51:16 <Newton> but this would replace the rocket-riding clonk of course
21:51:25 <Ringwaul> I like the rocket riding clonk :(
21:51:34 <Ringwaul> It's whimsical
21:51:53 <Newton> okay
21:52:03 <Newton> another opinion-mirror?
21:52:26 <Ringwaul> mirror?
21:52:28 <Maikel> the icon will be changed per release?
21:52:37 <Newton> shovel+musket: ack; boompackrider: ack
21:52:46 <Newton> Maikel: I'd prefer: no
21:53:04 <Sven2> Btw: "Back to the Rockets"? ;)
21:53:19 <Newton> an icon is like a logo, that may not change (so often)
21:53:26 <Ringwaul> Since when have their been rockets in clonk?
21:53:26 <Maikel> As in "back to bush"?
21:53:27 <Newton> the subtitle is different, that may change more often
21:53:32 <Ringwaul> also ack for both icons
21:53:35 <Spell> My second idea for an icon was simply an rocket
21:53:43 <Maikel> like we release more than once a year
21:54:19 <Newton> well we can always decide to change the icon later, I was just saying...
21:54:30 <Newton> spell: rocket without the clonk on it?
21:54:48 <Maikel> I think the icon suggestions are to specific to resemble openclonk
21:54:48 <Spell> hm I dunno how that should fit into an icon
21:54:54 <Spell> an icon needs to be simple
21:55:11 <Ringwaul> Clonk riding a rocket is simple enough
21:55:25 <Spell> An Person riding on it might be to complex
21:55:29 <Ringwaul> It displays that the game is "Clonk" and that's it's obviously awesome because we have rockets
21:55:48 <Newton> http://doodle.com/5ubvq5wif7mqtvkr?adminKey=&participantKey=
21:55:50 <Ringwaul> When the icon gets smaller it becomes just a rocket
21:55:56 <Zapper> Heh
21:55:59 <Zapper> Back to Rockit
21:56:02 <Zapper> imo
21:56:24 <Newton> whats a rockit?
21:56:29 <Zapper> rock it %(
21:56:39 <Maikel> A stone rabbit
21:56:50 <Ringwaul> x)
21:57:20 <Zapper> Back to rock it /o/
21:57:38 <Ringwaul> Oh my
21:57:56 <Ringwaul> I think that would create a very smalling voting base for the names
21:58:04 <Ringwaul> fyi
21:58:19 <Newton> smalling?
21:58:26 <Ringwaul> ehm...
21:58:31 <Ringwaul> small*
21:58:36 <Maikel> you should notice back, otherwise people migth think you write to yourself ;)
21:59:28 <Newton> hmpf
21:59:34 <Maikel> 1 minute to discuss weapons and guides
21:59:47 <Ringwaul> I got 3 minutes on my clock
21:59:47 <Ringwaul> :)
22:00:05 <Ringwaul> OMG swor shood liek maek clonk invincibul
22:00:07 <Newton> ok well, so logo and title are not resolved. We will think of how to do a vote and resolve this topic at last later
22:00:12 <Ringwaul> (ignore previous statement)
22:00:14 <Newton> lets move to agenda point 3
22:00:23 <Newton> we have the following topics
22:00:31 <Newton> Tutorial guide, modal-ness of window; prof and goal seperate?; item descriptions
22:00:35 <Spell> Ringwaul: I can't really think of how those Rocket+Clonk would fit together in one picture. (at least not in an symbolic picture)
22:00:36 <Newton> Races improvement
22:00:53 <Zapper> Spell, the smoke would write text obviously
22:00:58 <Newton> # Sword Functionality
22:01:06 <Spell> o_o
22:01:12 <Newton> sword functionality: join #openclonk-sword
22:01:29 <Newton> tutorial prof: join #openclonk-tutorialprof
22:01:44 <Spell> I mean about picture composition
22:02:00 <Ringwaul> The current icon has clonk+boompack
22:02:03 <Ringwaul> It looks good
22:02:08 <Spell> where is the icon?
22:02:12 <Newton> races improvement: join #openclonk-races
22:02:26 <Newton> you don't need to discuss in all channels (but you may ;-))
22:02:43 <Spell> can't find the current icon
22:02:45 <Newton> I'll just join all so that i got the log
22:03:48 -Newton/#openclonk-dev- agenda point 3
22:04:07 <Newton> #openclonk-tutorialprof #openclonk-sword #openclonk-races
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22:05:08 <Maikel> http://hg.openclonk.org/openclonk/raw-file/8ba476bcc2ba/src/res/oc.ico
22:05:12 <Maikel> @Spell
22:06:12 <Spell> oh well, thats with perspective
22:07:56 <Guenther> I still somewhat like the name "Headclonk". (Sorry for being afk, ran late today)
22:08:34 <Guenther> Because, as we all know, Clonk is the sound when a Rock hits a Clonk's head ;-)
22:08:56 <Maikel> wasn't it the sound of the lorry?
22:09:20 <Guenther> yeah, the actual reality somewhat clashes with the origin story
22:11:47 <Spell> btw. is OpenClonk ready to fit into an usual Linux system?
22:12:02 <Spell> *Linux file system
22:12:33 <Guenther> Of course, just use the grand tradition of /opt
22:13:11 <Spell> so the game data not into /usr/share/ but into /opt/ or what?
22:13:24 <-- clonkine has quit (Ping timeout)
22:13:37 <Spell> How is defined where it looks for the game data?
22:14:08 <Guenther> It's mostly the same as CR.
22:14:50 <Spell> Huh. Wasn't CR dependant on the working directory with only one directory to get data from?
22:15:19 <Loriel> Make the executable a shell script that cd's into the right directory and then runs the actual binary.
22:16:40 <Guenther> yes. I think we fixed the requirement to write into the installation directory
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22:41:10 <occ> Charles * 8563c7686166 planet/Objects.c4d/Clonk.c4d (Clonk.skeleton Script.c): clonk animation - falling
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22:44:18 <PeterW> Hm
22:44:28 <Newton> I'll sum up all the stuff that has been decided later
22:44:36 <Newton> im away (not off) now
22:45:38 <PeterW> [21:44:00] OpenClonk Beta (Cerulean)
22:45:38 <PeterW> [21:44:00] Version: 4.10.0.0 [002] Beta dbg mac ()
22:45:38 <PeterW> [21:44:00] gl: Create Context...
22:45:38 <PeterW> 4.10.0.0 [002] Beta dbg: Caught signal SIGBUS
22:45:38 <-- ck has quit (Connection reset by peer)
22:45:55 <PeterW> Someone know this kind of problem?
22:46:26 <Newton> dont have a mac
22:46:55 <Guenther> sounds like you should take out sigbus catching from C4WinMain.cpp and try again
22:47:42 <Guenther> if it works then, simply take it out completely, I never caught a sigbus on linux anyway
22:47:43 <Isilkor> shouldn't it crash then?
22:47:52 <Guenther> Well, maybe not on macs?
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22:49:02 <Guenther> On linux, the manpage said that exiting is the default behaviour - at least I think I simply took the list of all signals with exiting as default behavious
22:49:27 <PeterW> Well, now I get the full Macintosh crash report
22:49:49 <PeterW> Exception Type: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (SIGBUS)
22:50:13 <PeterW> Doesn't seem like the Mac is really liking it
22:50:36 <Maikel> bye bye
22:50:45 <-- Maikel has quit (Quit: Copywight 2007 Elmer Fudd. All wights wesewved.)
22:51:01 <Guenther> heh. The macintosh crash report is probably better than the clonk internal handler, which relies on glibc for the backtrace
22:51:40 <occ> czapper * 45acbbdd6b3e planet/Objects.c4d/Items.c4d/Weapons.c4d/Sword.c4d/Script.c: sword changes: jump attack only downwards, fixed damage
22:51:49 <PeterW> It is in CStdGLCtx::SelectCommon
22:52:00 <PeterW> glDisable(GL_DEPTH_TEST);
22:52:28 <Guenther> so maybe you should change the #ifdef stuff in C4WinMain to only install the handler if the backtrace stuff is available
22:52:58 <PeterW> How can I detect that?
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22:53:59 <PeterW> Oh, and it does give me a backtrace
22:56:00 <Guenther> huh? did you omit it from your paste above?
22:56:39 <PeterW> Yes
22:56:58 <PeterW> Sorry, didn't want to make it too long
22:57:04 <PeterW> 0 clonk 0x0004ab16 _Z3MinIiET_S0_S0_ + 456
22:57:04 <PeterW> 1 libSystem.B.dylib 0x9612d2bb _sigtramp + 43
22:57:04 <PeterW> 2  ??? 0xffffffff 0x0 + 4294967295
22:57:04 <PeterW> 3 clonk 0x00326e04 _ZN9CStdGLCtx12SelectCommonEv + 34
22:57:04 <PeterW> 4 clonk 0x00326ea5 _ZN9CStdGLCtx6SelectEb + 23
22:57:05 <Guenther> so macs have <execinfo.h>? Interesting
22:57:05 <PeterW> 5 clonk 0x00326f34 _ZN9CStdGLCtx4InitEP10CStdWindowP7CStdApp + 56
22:57:22 <PeterW> I also at first glance didn't see that those were Clonk names
22:58:16 <Guenther> we might want to try to filter the output through c++filt :-)
22:58:52 <PeterW> Yeah, whatever. No idea on the problem itself, I guess?
22:58:59 <Guenther> anyway, do you have an idea when this worked last? did somebody push a broken commit, or did something change on your mac?
22:59:16 <PeterW> Well, that's the norefs branch
22:59:23 <PeterW> I distinctly remember working on it
22:59:49 <PeterW> But on the other hand, I remember some kind of strange thing creeping up back then too
23:00:27 <PeterW> Let's try it with default
23:01:08 <Guenther> maybe your opengl driver broke since then
23:01:23 <PeterW> Clonk Rage still works
23:01:28 <Guenther> or you have a different opengl version
23:01:32 <Guenther> er, sdl
23:02:07 <PeterW> Well, the CMake build doesn't use Julians hacked wrapper script, maybe that's the issue
23:02:17 <PeterW> I don't really now what that's doing
23:02:21 <Guenther> by the way, mortimers cocoa (carbon?) port needs mroe review
23:07:45 <PeterW> Same problem
23:08:55 <Guenther> is selectcommon called before CStdApp::SetVideoMode?
23:09:09 <Guenther> maybe it is, and it's harmless on other platforms
23:09:38 <PeterW> I'm using windows mode, so SetVideoMode shouldn't do anything I guess?
23:09:42 <PeterW> *windowed
23:11:53 <Guenther> it's critical because it creates the window
23:12:06 <Guenther> Or, at least, it does on SDL/Linux
23:12:35 <PeterW> (by the way: Why is there no link to forum_search.pl? I always have to compose the URL myself)
23:13:10 <Guenther> because there's a search form on every page, I guess
23:13:15 <Guenther> I missed the link myself
23:13:29 <PeterW> But that won't allow me to search for a post by a specific person
23:13:38 <Guenther> Definitively the opengl context creation is done in SetVideoMode, because that's where SDL is told that OpenGL is to be used
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23:16:14 <PeterW> CStdApp::SetVideoMode?
23:17:34 <PeterW> That's called really late, if I'm reading the source correctly
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23:19:40 <Guenther> So I'd guess that's the problem
23:19:59 <Guenther> Bla, the SDL port really does not fit very well with the abstraction
23:20:33 <PeterW> Can I test that quickly?
23:20:56 <Guenther> stuff a call to sdlsetvideomode after sdl_init
23:22:26 <Guenther> it's really stupid: You need to init D3D to change the video mode, and change the video mode to init OpenGL with SDL
23:25:28 <Guenther> So finding the right API is difficult, especially considering that we need multiple OpenGL contexts for the developer mode
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23:27:08 <PeterW> ... and that's why I had it windowed in the first place
23:27:41 <PeterW> No idea how to get out of the black screen that results from a resolution-changing program locking up
23:28:10 <Guenther> switch to the first tty, ...
23:28:18 <PeterW> Mortimer seems to have done quite a few reorganizations of the Mac files, btw
23:28:21 <PeterW> tty?
23:28:42 <Guenther> or what's it called? virtual terminal?
23:28:42 <PeterW> So I better pull his changes first before I try to repair the CMake scripts
23:29:03 <PeterW> Depends on what you mean :P
23:29:08 <Guenther> Yeah, but his changes are sometimes questionable
23:29:23 <PeterW> Moving stuff out of xcode/ is reasonable
23:29:38 <Guenther> The text console you get with ctrl+alt+F1 ;-)
23:29:49 <PeterW> People should (theoretically?) be able to build even without XCode
23:30:26 <PeterW> In case CMake can figure out how to compile everything together into a proper Mac bundle
23:30:40 <Guenther> For example, the changes to ban "id" should imho not be merged
23:30:46 <PeterW> Mac doesn't have that
23:31:06 <PeterW> Oh yeah, he run everything through the Objective-C compiler?
23:31:17 <PeterW> That seems wrong, yes
23:31:52 <PeterW> We should properly separate Objective-C and C++, the C4Group thing already caused enough confusion
23:32:16 <Guenther> Perhaps I should continue with my review, perhaps he'll implement my suggestions then
23:33:17 <PeterW> But why did he change the resolution anyway when fFullscreen is false. Hng.
23:33:32 <Gurkenglas> re
23:33:39 <Gurkenglas> meeting still running :D?
23:34:00 <PeterW> No, just me and Guenther secretly plotting
23:34:33 <Guenther> we should perhaps rename half of the "fullscreen" booleans to reduce the confusion between developermode/playermode and windowed/fullscreen
23:34:49 <PeterW> Oh, and it's actually true
23:36:04 <PeterW> We should change de.clonk.openclonk.config to org.openclonk.config, btw
23:36:53 <Guenther> For some values of "we" that excludes me ;-)
23:37:43 <PeterW> Just endorse it, that's enough :P
23:37:52 <PeterW> Btw, you get some cookies
23:37:58 <PeterW> That actually fixed the issue
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23:38:16 <PeterW> Oh
23:38:22 <Guenther> I probably broke it in the first place, so thanks :-)
23:38:23 <PeterW> ... sort of :]
23:38:42 <Guenther> now to figure out a sane crossplatform api from this!
23:38:57 <PeterW> Now it crashes in SDL_SetGammaRamp when shutting down
23:39:30 <Guenther> Perhaps we should just ditch D3D support for now, which would make the fix relatively easy: Move SetVideoMode a few lines up in C4Application.cpp
23:39:50 <PeterW> Ugh
23:40:00 <PeterW> The Clonk portrais looks ridiculous
23:41:48 <PeterW> And we really need to make the Clonk fatter or make 3x zoom the minimum
23:42:54 <PeterW> That's actually what I did, btw
23:45:49 <PeterW> I guess ditching D3D is just a matter of time anyway
23:46:53 <Guenther> Isilkor wanted to revive it, I think
23:47:08 <PeterW> (Not that I would really want to take a stand in that war :) )
23:48:06 <Guenther> Well, I've been trying to be polite and not make it unneccesarily difficult for whoever does the work, but I won't work on it myself, so shrug
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23:59:23 <PeterW> Hm, can I somehow determine the current version from a CMake script?
23:59:38 <PeterW> As in, extract it from C4Version.h
00:00:38 <JCaesar> PeterW: What do you wanna do with it?
00:00:48 <PeterW> But it into the bundle info
00:00:53 <PeterW> *Put
00:01:25 <PeterW> (Set a variable to the value)
00:01:38 <Guenther> Maybe we should revive the "version" file
00:02:01 <Guenther> and build a C++ header file from it
00:02:01 <PeterW> The one matthes used for this release management scripts?
00:02:14 <PeterW> I don't know whether that actually makes it easier
00:02:43 <PeterW> I mean, at least VC manages to use it directly
00:03:29 <Guenther> well, parsing a custom format and writing it into a C header _is_ easer than parsing C, so
00:03:45 <PeterW> Well, depends
00:04:42 <PeterW> If I have EXTRACT_CXX_VALUE_TO_VARIABLE(inc/C4Version.h, C4VERSION), then it might be pretty simple
00:04:46 <PeterW> *If I had
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00:15:56 <Isilkor> you can probably read the file and run a regexp
00:15:58 <Isilkor> I guess
00:16:10 <PeterW> How?
00:16:23 <PeterW> I'm right now scanning through the documentation for something like that
00:16:54 <PeterW> Hm
00:18:49 <PeterW> Okay, now searching for that directly I found something :)
00:18:52 <Isilkor> file(READ) and string(REGEX)
00:19:50 <PeterW> Even though it might be the better idea anyway to put the version under CMake control and have it generate C4Version.h?
00:20:27 <Isilkor> could be
00:20:57 <Isilkor> we can use configure_file() for that
00:21:55 <Isilkor> if we write something like #define C4VERSION @VERSION@, we might even use the same input file for autotools and cmake
00:22:23 <PeterW> Yep, I was just browsing around a CMake-using project and that's how they did it
00:24:54 <PeterW> Ah well, not today. Tired.
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00:51:29 <occ> Charles * 4f59605a060b planet/Objects.c4d/Clonk.c4d/Script.c: Small bug with jump fixed
00:52:06 <Ringwaul> How does the aim manager find which hand the item is in?
00:52:21 <Ringwaul> Oh, nevermind
00:52:27 <Ringwaul> It probably doesm't...
01:02:45 <Ringwaul> Hmm, when the clonk plays the "shield" animation his legs stay still when he walks
01:03:03 <Ringwaul> It seems the walk animation doesn't want to blend with the shield animation
01:15:21 <Ringwaul> Perhaps if there are no keys affecting the feet in the shield animation...
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01:31:26 <Isilkor-182> Newton: you can set bugs sticky by checking the box in front of it and using the dropdown box at the bottom of the bug list